WEBVTT 00:00:04.684 --> 00:00:08.085 Welcome to the Don't Pastor Alone podcast, where we connect pastors and churches 00:00:08.085 --> 00:00:12.165 with trusted people and practical resources so they don't pastor alone. 00:00:12.165 --> 00:00:17.896 I'm Bob Bumgarner, and I'm here today in the ministry garage with Jimbo Stewart and Darren Sullivan. 00:00:18.152 --> 00:00:20.648 Man, I'm excited to be back in the ministry garage recording with you, Bob. 00:00:20.921 --> 00:00:24.935 Man, it's great to be here, Bob. I feel like I've made the big time being on 00:00:24.935 --> 00:00:28.185 this podcast with the esteemed Jimbo Stewart and Bob Bumgarner. 00:00:28.185 --> 00:00:32.165 It feels like I've been drafted into the NFL. So thank you for having me, guys. 00:00:32.705 --> 00:00:34.025 Let's see how the first season goes. 00:00:34.025 --> 00:00:34.505 Yeah, right? 00:00:36.739 --> 00:00:41.621 But maybe LSU will try to get you on their team as well, once you've had some NFL time. 00:00:42.445 --> 00:00:46.285 So today, Bob, we're going to begin a conversation about one of the four ministry 00:00:46.285 --> 00:00:51.875 pathways that First Coast Churches does, starting churches specifically in this episode. 00:00:51.875 --> 00:00:55.215 Whether you're a church planter, sending church, supporting church, 00:00:55.215 --> 00:00:58.725 or simply just wondering why do we need more churches? 00:00:59.325 --> 00:01:02.115 Do we need more churches? This episode is going to be for you. 00:01:02.115 --> 00:01:03.847 So today, we have Darren Sullivan. 00:01:04.218 --> 00:01:06.865 On this episode, Darren is a missional strategist for First Coast Churches who 00:01:06.865 --> 00:01:10.139 oversees the church starting pathway. 00:01:11.022 --> 00:01:16.445 So Darren, some people, when they hear church planting, the main kind of objection 00:01:16.445 --> 00:01:20.104 question we seem to get off the jump, especially in the South, 00:01:20.825 --> 00:01:24.135 is don't we already have enough churches? 00:01:24.135 --> 00:01:27.082 I mean, there's certainly neighborhoods you drive through and you're like, 00:01:27.525 --> 00:01:28.705 church building, church building. 00:01:28.705 --> 00:01:29.455 Church building. 00:01:29.455 --> 00:01:34.215 It's like on every corner. So why do we talk about starting new churches? 00:01:34.215 --> 00:01:34.576 Yeah. 00:01:35.185 --> 00:01:39.783 So the answer to your first question, don't we have enough churches, is an emphatic no. 00:01:39.951 --> 00:01:43.423 And the reason why is because, and you guys know this, right? 00:01:43.800 --> 00:01:45.576 Lost people matter to God. 00:01:46.116 --> 00:01:50.616 Lostness matters to God. And I don't know about you guys, but you can fact check 00:01:50.616 --> 00:01:54.606 me on this. Last time I looked, the Great Commission, it still isn't finished, right? 00:01:54.606 --> 00:01:55.021 Yes. 00:01:55.166 --> 00:02:00.636 And so we've still got work to do. And yeah, it's just lots of opportunity, 00:02:00.636 --> 00:02:04.666 lots of growth, and there's new neighborhoods popping up everywhere. 00:02:04.666 --> 00:02:06.749 There's new generations coming to Christ. 00:02:07.254 --> 00:02:11.196 New cultures are showing up. And here's the thing, guys, every church has a 00:02:11.196 --> 00:02:16.126 unique mission field to serve those people. And one of the phrases that I like 00:02:16.126 --> 00:02:21.117 to say is that lostness, not competition, is what drives church planting. 00:02:21.274 --> 00:02:24.304 We should focus on lostness and not competition. 00:02:24.594 --> 00:02:29.076 You know, Darren, one of the things that we talk about is how they're in the 00:02:29.076 --> 00:02:33.996 first coast, Northeast Florida, You could say that we have a lot of ethnicities, 00:02:34.516 --> 00:02:39.226 but what really seems to drive our culture here is not the ethnicities as much 00:02:39.226 --> 00:02:44.736 as we have a beach culture, we have an urban culture, we have a suburban culture and a rural culture. 00:02:45.276 --> 00:02:51.214 And so we really do need different kinds of churches in each one of those kinds of cultures. 00:02:51.446 --> 00:02:58.076 So context is king, is one of the opportunities that we have for trying to help 00:02:58.192 --> 00:03:01.477 people have a church that meets their need with the gospel. 00:03:01.605 --> 00:03:03.097 Yeah, definitely. Absolutely. 00:03:03.654 --> 00:03:06.493 I think another objection or question that sometimes people bring up is, 00:03:06.940 --> 00:03:09.816 shouldn't we just focus on strengthening the churches that we have, 00:03:09.816 --> 00:03:14.517 the existing churches, instead of planting new ones? How would you answer that? 00:03:15.033 --> 00:03:17.926 I mean, it's a great question, Jim. I think the answer, though, 00:03:17.926 --> 00:03:21.756 is both. It's not an either or. It's rather a both and. 00:03:22.758 --> 00:03:29.045 You know, a healthy kingdom ecosystem needs both healthy existing churches and healthy new churches. 00:03:29.510 --> 00:03:32.806 And the great thing about what we do here at First Coast Church is we serve 00:03:32.806 --> 00:03:36.086 both those areas. I mean, you're in that lane of revitalization, 00:03:36.086 --> 00:03:39.626 replanting. I'm in the lane of church planting, church starting, 00:03:39.626 --> 00:03:41.645 and then Bob oversees all of it. 00:03:42.199 --> 00:03:46.007 But, I mean, I think both are important. And here's the thing. 00:03:46.315 --> 00:03:51.162 Planting and revitalization are not competitors. They're teammates. 00:03:51.702 --> 00:03:55.516 Now, if I take this on a practical level, maybe, you know, on the football field, 00:03:55.516 --> 00:03:57.227 for instance, you're wearing your LSU hat. 00:03:58.005 --> 00:04:02.796 And if I was to think like my favorite football team, the Georgia Bulldogs, 00:04:02.796 --> 00:04:05.136 right? God's favorite team. And then plays your team. 00:04:05.696 --> 00:04:07.846 Well, there should be some healthy competition. 00:04:07.846 --> 00:04:08.199 Yeah. 00:04:08.379 --> 00:04:11.146 But we need to leave the competition to the ball fields. 00:04:11.236 --> 00:04:11.726 Yeah. 00:04:11.726 --> 00:04:15.026 And we need to collaborate and pray for one another, encourage one another. 00:04:15.026 --> 00:04:16.813 Both can exist in God's economy. 00:04:17.092 --> 00:04:23.286 Yeah. And building on that, I think the idea is that we need to increase the 00:04:23.286 --> 00:04:28.841 birth rate of new churches and decrease the death rate of existing churches. 00:04:29.108 --> 00:04:33.224 But you know, guys, one of the things that is hard to hear, but it's true, 00:04:33.601 --> 00:04:37.973 is that churches are not eternal. The kingdom is eternal. Churches have life cycles. 00:04:38.530 --> 00:04:44.255 And a church that has ignored its community for a number of years may not have a future. 00:04:44.776 --> 00:04:49.486 You know, part of revitalization is not just an organizational renewal, 00:04:49.486 --> 00:04:54.786 but it's helping people make disciples where they are with the people that God has placed around them. 00:04:54.786 --> 00:04:59.525 So I think the key thing to remember is we're talking about disciple-making, 00:05:00.466 --> 00:05:06.293 at the core, either through a new church plant that's probably going to reach new people, 00:05:06.950 --> 00:05:11.596 or an existing church plant that has some great commission, or I'm sorry, 00:05:11.596 --> 00:05:17.006 an existing church that probably has some kingdom assets that need to be refocused 00:05:17.006 --> 00:05:19.667 toward disciple-making instead of ministry maintenance. 00:05:20.345 --> 00:05:24.784 Yeah. What would you say, Bob, to the church that is existing and struggling 00:05:24.784 --> 00:05:27.531 and they hear about church plant in the community, 00:05:28.042 --> 00:05:33.064 and they hear us say, it's not about competition, but their first reaction, 00:05:33.064 --> 00:05:36.444 their first thought is, man, it feels like you're kind of in my, 00:05:36.444 --> 00:05:39.977 quote unquote, my territory and in my area. 00:05:40.514 --> 00:05:42.020 What would you say to that pastor? 00:05:42.258 --> 00:05:46.792 Well, somebody has recently said, and I'd give attribution if I could remember, 00:05:47.121 --> 00:05:50.122 but our mindset has to be kingdom over castle. 00:05:51.054 --> 00:05:56.104 It has to be the kingdom over territory. And so what I would say is I know what 00:05:56.104 --> 00:06:00.344 it feels like, but that doesn't let you off the hook for what you're supposed 00:06:00.344 --> 00:06:02.540 to be doing at your particular church. 00:06:02.928 --> 00:06:08.977 There was a statistic in the early 2000s that said you could plant a church, 00:06:09.934 --> 00:06:13.906 next to every church that needs to be revitalized in our convention, 00:06:14.329 --> 00:06:16.064 and that church plant would grow. 00:06:16.064 --> 00:06:18.594 Now, I think that's maybe a 00:06:18.594 --> 00:06:23.954 truism more than a principle, but the point I want to make based on your, 00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:30.614 to answer your question, is I think that's where the association is uniquely 00:06:30.614 --> 00:06:34.754 gifted to come alongside a church that has the presence of mind to ask that 00:06:34.754 --> 00:06:38.494 question and then let us help you redream the dream. 00:06:38.494 --> 00:06:44.174 Let us help you figure out, given who you are and where the historical moment 00:06:44.174 --> 00:06:48.746 that the community is in, how do we once again begin to make disciples? 00:06:49.164 --> 00:06:52.824 And if it's true, and it is, that the normative-sized church in the Southern 00:06:52.824 --> 00:06:57.584 Baptist Convention is between 70 and 100, I mean, this is doable. 00:06:57.584 --> 00:07:01.264 We can do that. We can revitalize. Every church can be revitalized if they have 00:07:01.264 --> 00:07:03.711 the right mindset and willingness. 00:07:04.065 --> 00:07:09.174 Yeah. And ultimately, Darren, would you say there are enough lost people in 00:07:09.174 --> 00:07:13.484 that community for both churches to thrive? 00:07:13.484 --> 00:07:14.238 Absolutely. 00:07:14.877 --> 00:07:19.457 We need all size churches, all different unique churches to reach people where 00:07:19.457 --> 00:07:22.927 they live, work, play, and study. And the bottom line is this, 00:07:22.927 --> 00:07:25.787 and I think, Bob, you shared the numbers the other day at a lunch. 00:07:25.787 --> 00:07:28.867 How many people total? We have like 1 million in Jacksonville. 00:07:28.867 --> 00:07:30.187 We have about 1.7 million. 00:07:30.187 --> 00:07:34.807 Yeah. And then you said something like there's 400,000 people in churches, 00:07:34.807 --> 00:07:37.147 but there's over 600,000 people who are not churches. 00:07:37.147 --> 00:07:41.797 That are unclaimed by the- Unclaimed. Yeah, they have not self-declared what 00:07:41.797 --> 00:07:44.807 they're aligned with, whether it's a Christian belief or any other belief. 00:07:44.807 --> 00:07:46.540 They're just totally unattached from a church. 00:07:47.227 --> 00:07:52.467 So in Jacksonville, we have a third of our neighbors easily that are not claimed with anybody. 00:07:52.467 --> 00:07:53.327 Plenty to go around. 00:07:53.327 --> 00:07:53.937 Half a million. 00:07:53.937 --> 00:07:57.897 Plenty. Plenty. I mean, we need more new church plants and more churches revitalized. 00:07:57.897 --> 00:08:02.047 Yeah, both. And if both thrive, there's still going to be a lot of lost people in that community. 00:08:02.047 --> 00:08:03.316 That's right. That's right. Yeah. 00:08:03.496 --> 00:08:10.227 So when we talk about church planters, what kind of person are we thinking of 00:08:10.587 --> 00:08:12.847 that should consider church planting? 00:08:12.847 --> 00:08:17.997 Yeah. Well, I mean, that's a, you know, they're certainly not superheroes. 00:08:17.997 --> 00:08:21.917 Sometimes people look at church planters and they think they have this like 00:08:21.917 --> 00:08:24.776 special and unique, you know, calling or whatever. 00:08:25.188 --> 00:08:27.767 And there's no doubt there is a calling there and there's a gifting, 00:08:27.767 --> 00:08:31.397 but they're not superheroes. They're not always younger guys. 00:08:31.397 --> 00:08:35.417 They can be middle-aged guys like me and you, Jimbo. They can be older guys. 00:08:35.417 --> 00:08:37.807 I won't mention anybody else, but we'll leave it at that. 00:08:38.986 --> 00:08:43.037 They definitely need to be gifted. They need to have the ability to lead something, 00:08:43.037 --> 00:08:47.177 the ability to start and build something or to grow something. 00:08:47.728 --> 00:08:51.299 Another thing I think they need to have is they need to have a missionary mindset. 00:08:51.792 --> 00:08:55.287 How am I going to get out into the community and reach people and introduce 00:08:55.287 --> 00:08:58.363 people to Jesus and invite them to church? I've always said this. 00:08:58.712 --> 00:09:02.667 You can administrate a church behind a computer or laptop, but you can't lead 00:09:02.667 --> 00:09:05.364 a church from behind a laptop. So you've got to get out there. 00:09:06.043 --> 00:09:09.458 A couple of things, a vision for the community that they're planted in, 00:09:09.458 --> 00:09:15.792 a vision for the kingdom, vision for getting people connected into healthy groups, 00:09:16.023 --> 00:09:20.807 fellowship there. They need to be relatively healthy. They need to, not perfect. 00:09:21.208 --> 00:09:24.658 There's no such thing as a perfect church planter, but they need to have a healthy 00:09:24.658 --> 00:09:26.448 marriage, healthy family overall. 00:09:27.388 --> 00:09:32.978 They need to be able to be developed, coachable, teachable. Anything else you would add to that, Bob? 00:09:32.978 --> 00:09:38.145 Yeah, I think I want to go to the negative side of this. What kind of person is it not? 00:09:38.644 --> 00:09:42.620 It's not the kind of person that says, you know what? I'm tired of the traditional church. 00:09:43.768 --> 00:09:48.738 I'm going to go and start something. At the end of the day, church planting 00:09:48.738 --> 00:09:51.943 is not, you can't plant a church if you're running from something. 00:09:52.448 --> 00:09:57.208 You've got to run to a community. There's got to be a group of people that you 00:09:57.208 --> 00:10:02.348 love, that you care about, that you understand, that you would adjust to in 00:10:02.348 --> 00:10:06.624 some of your methodology if it made you more effective in reaching them. 00:10:06.827 --> 00:10:07.638 It's gonna go back to what we 00:10:07.638 --> 00:10:11.448 said earlier about this is not about competition, but a kingdom mindset. 00:10:11.593 --> 00:10:16.318 So don't go in if it's about competitiveness. I'm gonna be better than that 00:10:16.318 --> 00:10:19.970 church. I'm gonna beat that church. But if it's about a kingdom mindset. 00:10:20.219 --> 00:10:24.741 I think God honors that. I think God honors, we wanna see his kingdom growth 00:10:25.107 --> 00:10:28.088 and it's not about, can I be better or bigger or all that stuff? 00:10:28.088 --> 00:10:30.388 Like, I mean, I get it. Everybody goes through those things, 00:10:30.388 --> 00:10:34.948 but let's honor God and let's do what he told us to do and go reach people for his glory. 00:10:34.948 --> 00:10:39.008 One of the things I'm excited about from NAMM and North American Mission Board, 00:10:39.708 --> 00:10:46.338 and just in our conversations is that it also shouldn't be the person who wants 00:10:46.338 --> 00:10:47.670 to plant a worship service. 00:10:48.024 --> 00:10:48.748 Yeah, that's good. 00:10:48.748 --> 00:10:52.078 Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, you're planting a church. 00:10:52.078 --> 00:10:54.607 You're planting a disciple-making organism. 00:10:54.921 --> 00:10:57.968 So, and Darren hinted at this earlier, go in and make disciples. 00:10:58.311 --> 00:11:01.818 And when you make disciples, then meet with them, do things, 00:11:01.818 --> 00:11:08.725 serve the community and then eventually a congregation will rise up out of that. I think the days of, 00:11:09.428 --> 00:11:13.757 Just going in and planting a worship service, I'm not saying that that's evil. 00:11:13.757 --> 00:11:19.177 I'm just saying we're seeing that churches, that communities are more easily 00:11:19.177 --> 00:11:24.007 able to ignore a worship service than they are a group of people committed to 00:11:24.007 --> 00:11:25.887 serving a particular context. 00:11:26.227 --> 00:11:29.607 Yeah, and I mean, to affirm that, we've heard it said over and over, 00:11:29.607 --> 00:11:35.767 but engage the community, make disciples, and then from that, plant the church. 00:11:36.597 --> 00:11:41.237 The old way of throwing a mailer out there and trying to have a Sunday service and have people show up. 00:11:41.237 --> 00:11:45.007 I mean, it worked. I understand that, but it's a whole different ballgame out 00:11:45.007 --> 00:11:48.177 there. And truth of the matter is, is that what we should have been doing from 00:11:48.177 --> 00:11:50.751 the beginning anyways? We need to engage with the community, 00:11:51.029 --> 00:11:55.007 make disciples and make disciples. And from there, let's launch and plant a 00:11:55.007 --> 00:11:56.057 church in that community. 00:11:56.057 --> 00:11:56.364 Yeah. 00:11:56.858 --> 00:12:00.167 Yeah. And I would even flip that in the church revitalization world. 00:12:00.683 --> 00:12:02.387 It's much the same thing, right? 00:12:02.947 --> 00:12:07.417 No longer can you just have a good worship service and just pastor a good worship 00:12:07.417 --> 00:12:10.546 service and hope that your church is going to become healthy and grow. 00:12:10.917 --> 00:12:17.417 You're going to have to move out of a competitive mindset into a kingdom mindset on mission. 00:12:17.417 --> 00:12:22.336 And one of the ways that you can help your church practice that muscle, 00:12:22.829 --> 00:12:27.286 not the only way, but one of the ways is becoming ascending or supporting church. 00:12:27.623 --> 00:12:32.127 So let's talk to the guys listening that they're probably never going to plant 00:12:32.127 --> 00:12:34.847 a church, but what's the role in this, 00:12:36.727 --> 00:12:43.975 for the pastor or a ministry leader in just an existing established church? 00:12:44.741 --> 00:12:48.794 Yeah, you know, they can absolutely be a part of it by supporting, 00:12:48.794 --> 00:12:53.664 by praying first and foremost, praying that, you know, another church in that 00:12:53.664 --> 00:12:56.531 community would show up and reach the lost people that are still there. 00:12:56.973 --> 00:13:01.216 They can give. They can give finances. They can give equipment. 00:13:01.611 --> 00:13:04.714 Sound equipment is a great way to help another church plant. 00:13:05.062 --> 00:13:06.644 They can give furniture, chairs. 00:13:07.413 --> 00:13:10.664 They can give stuff that, you know, are still relatively in good use, 00:13:10.664 --> 00:13:14.797 but they could give that. They could give a trailer to a portable church plant. 00:13:15.450 --> 00:13:19.694 Coaching, they can help coach that. So there's many ways that they can help 00:13:19.694 --> 00:13:22.784 support a church if they're not actually planting a church themselves. 00:13:23.245 --> 00:13:26.890 Yeah, and in addition to all those things that you can actually make it to where 00:13:27.169 --> 00:13:31.596 the sending church, it does all those things he just said are necessary. 00:13:31.840 --> 00:13:36.864 But a way that actually helps the sending church is send your youth group to do a VBS. 00:13:38.024 --> 00:13:42.874 I mean, do micro, if it's in the city, same city, I just made this up, 00:13:42.874 --> 00:13:47.524 but like a micro mission trip, like do something that mobilizes your people 00:13:47.524 --> 00:13:49.574 to serve that congregation. 00:13:49.574 --> 00:13:53.725 And that'll animate that missionary calling that's in them. 00:13:53.842 --> 00:13:57.417 Yeah, collaborate together, work together on an Easter egg outreach together, 00:13:57.574 --> 00:14:01.894 do an Easter sunrise service together, do a Christmas Eve service together, 00:14:01.894 --> 00:14:05.284 whatever. There's many ways that they can partner together. And that just shows 00:14:05.284 --> 00:14:06.583 kingdom mindedness right there. 00:14:06.967 --> 00:14:11.355 In that kingdom-mindedness, what would you say don't pastor alone looks like, 00:14:12.424 --> 00:14:17.931 for the church planter and the legacy church in that same community? 00:14:18.291 --> 00:14:20.644 How do those pastors don't pastor alone? 00:14:20.644 --> 00:14:21.280 Yes. 00:14:21.849 --> 00:14:27.276 Well, this is what I say. We don't trust people we don't know, 00:14:27.752 --> 00:14:29.524 and we don't collaborate with people we don't trust. 00:14:30.144 --> 00:14:33.744 So at the end of the day, it starts with a cup of coffee. Pastors that are serving 00:14:33.744 --> 00:14:37.110 the same area need to actually know each other. 00:14:38.584 --> 00:14:42.064 I think as we talk, one of the things that I think that I'm learning in this 00:14:42.064 --> 00:14:45.704 role is that we're kind of the gap spotters. Where are the gaps? 00:14:46.468 --> 00:14:47.872 Where do two churches, 00:14:48.548 --> 00:14:53.537 Where's some place that's not being served? So, and because these two churches 00:14:53.537 --> 00:14:56.887 are two miles apart, there might be something that they could do together that 00:14:56.887 --> 00:14:59.502 neither one of them would have thought to do alone. 00:15:00.287 --> 00:15:05.876 The way that I was actually talking to Mark Halleck the other day, the idea is this, 00:15:07.376 --> 00:15:14.022 collaboration allows, so love sees the gap, collaboration fills the gap. 00:15:14.573 --> 00:15:16.851 And so that's what, that's kind of what we're always trying to do. 00:15:16.851 --> 00:15:19.071 Where are the food deserts? Where are the church deserts? 00:15:19.759 --> 00:15:23.318 Where is the kingdom not really present? 00:15:23.573 --> 00:15:27.691 And then how can we help churches see that so that they collaborate together? 00:15:27.691 --> 00:15:30.951 It don't, so they don't pastor alone together in that. 00:15:30.951 --> 00:15:35.231 Yeah. And if they want to hear Mark Halleck talk more about things like that, 00:15:35.231 --> 00:15:38.031 October 22nd is our- Yeah. 00:15:38.051 --> 00:15:43.101 He'll be here at the collective. It'll be at Chess Creek Church from 930 to noon. 00:15:43.101 --> 00:15:43.141 Yeah. 00:15:43.511 --> 00:15:47.371 And you're welcome to come. Go to the website and register so we can buy you lunch. 00:15:47.371 --> 00:15:47.642 Yeah. 00:15:48.228 --> 00:15:50.791 Yeah. And back to that, don't pastor alone. That was some great points that 00:15:50.791 --> 00:15:54.321 Bob made. And I would just think that we've got to remember that we have a very 00:15:54.321 --> 00:15:55.491 real enemy in this thing. 00:15:55.951 --> 00:16:01.574 And the enemy He loves to come steal, kill, and destroy. He would love to isolate pastors, both existing, 00:16:03.051 --> 00:16:08.191 churches and pastors of church plants and get them insulated and isolated and 00:16:08.191 --> 00:16:12.236 just think everything's about them or woe is me kind of a deal. 00:16:12.695 --> 00:16:15.975 Don't do that. That's what don't pastor alone means. Get out of the silo, 00:16:16.242 --> 00:16:20.911 work together, and let's collaborate for kingdom growth and kingdom health and 00:16:20.911 --> 00:16:23.899 make our community and our churches much better. 00:16:24.096 --> 00:16:28.611 You know, I was in relationship to that. I don't want us to forget just the 00:16:28.611 --> 00:16:31.551 daily grind that a pastor goes through. 00:16:32.153 --> 00:16:35.161 I'm not going to say any names, but there's a church plant that's currently 00:16:35.161 --> 00:16:40.301 being planted in our city that there is Satan's having a little bit of a field 00:16:40.301 --> 00:16:44.831 day, spreading lies, things that are not true. 00:16:45.711 --> 00:16:50.841 But here's the thing, that particular planter, we can't unring what somebody 00:16:50.841 --> 00:16:56.280 wants to do destructively, but we can be the phone call, and we are being the phone call. 00:16:56.535 --> 00:16:59.995 And I was talking to a very large church pastor in our city yesterday, 00:17:00.378 --> 00:17:05.231 and there is a unique stress related to... 00:17:05.821 --> 00:17:11.840 Some stuff going on on the team there that you could say is the enemy at work again. 00:17:11.944 --> 00:17:16.629 And so it's not just the enemies, to Darren's point, the enemies at work. 00:17:16.629 --> 00:17:17.134 Yes. 00:17:17.302 --> 00:17:23.004 And we really do need to stand shoulder to shoulder, just like in those nature 00:17:23.202 --> 00:17:28.189 where the wildebeest all get shoulder to shoulder and then face off the lion 00:17:28.189 --> 00:17:29.959 or the hyenas or whatever. 00:17:30.859 --> 00:17:35.179 I mean, I'm not saying you're a wildebeest, but I think there's a principle there. 00:17:35.179 --> 00:17:40.109 Yeah, if they can get you isolated and alone, you're fair game and the enemy 00:17:40.109 --> 00:17:43.199 will take you down. And so, yeah, it's important. 00:17:43.919 --> 00:17:46.801 Collaborate, reach out, don't pastor alone. 00:17:47.214 --> 00:17:50.599 So I don't think the enemy actually minds if we plant churches. 00:17:50.599 --> 00:17:52.849 I think the enemy minds if we plant healthy churches. 00:17:52.849 --> 00:17:53.199 Yeah. 00:17:53.539 --> 00:17:57.799 Darren, you've worked with a lot of church planters. What separates healthy 00:17:57.799 --> 00:18:00.025 church plants from unhealthy ones? 00:18:00.182 --> 00:18:01.024 That's a great question. 00:18:01.488 --> 00:18:07.279 I would say, first and foremost, that pastor, that they have an established 00:18:07.659 --> 00:18:13.869 daily, and again, I want to say daily walk with God, a dependency on the Holy Spirit. 00:18:13.869 --> 00:18:19.629 Because again, you guys know the grind, it's relentless, the emails, 00:18:19.629 --> 00:18:25.028 the sermon preparation, the raising funds, the casting vision, the pastoral care. 00:18:25.736 --> 00:18:30.735 But we've really got to remember that we've got to be in a daily walk with God. 00:18:30.984 --> 00:18:32.668 Dependency on his Holy Spirit. 00:18:33.207 --> 00:18:36.849 We got to remember that we're not just starting 501c3 organizations. 00:18:36.849 --> 00:18:41.269 Yes, there's a part of it, but this is a spiritual thing. And so that's the 00:18:41.269 --> 00:18:44.699 difference, I think, that separates healthy ones from ones that are just getting 00:18:44.699 --> 00:18:48.599 along. And again, I know you guys talk about falling back in love with Jesus 00:18:48.939 --> 00:18:51.441 and revitalization. It all starts there. 00:18:52.689 --> 00:18:54.979 There's other things that go into that. There's some practicals, 00:18:54.979 --> 00:18:58.969 of course. We want somebody with a healthy marriage. 00:18:59.235 --> 00:19:02.334 You know, they've been assessed. The SEND Network helps us with assessment. 00:19:03.097 --> 00:19:07.292 We want somebody to have a clear vision, and those are some things that we can 00:19:07.292 --> 00:19:08.762 help them with at the association. 00:19:08.762 --> 00:19:13.882 Bob, we work with planters and pastors all the time, helping them with a vision 00:19:13.882 --> 00:19:17.602 frame, a mission, vision, values, DNA for those things. 00:19:17.602 --> 00:19:22.593 And those are all important. They need to have a clear discipleship-making pathway, 00:19:23.110 --> 00:19:26.906 because everybody who comes to their church is asking the question, 00:19:27.220 --> 00:19:29.559 can I grow here? What is my next steps? 00:19:30.232 --> 00:19:32.272 So anything else that you wanted to add to that, Bob? 00:19:32.712 --> 00:19:41.532 Um, healthy marriage, the, all the things that happen in the personal walk eventually 00:19:41.532 --> 00:19:45.112 bleed over into the life, into the life of the church. 00:19:45.112 --> 00:19:48.201 So you won't be able to, to fake it. 00:19:48.992 --> 00:19:53.878 I really do admire the grit of a lot of the ministry wives that I meet. 00:19:54.157 --> 00:19:57.742 They go, they, they, I mean, they're on the front lines, they're working hard, 00:19:57.742 --> 00:19:58.887 they're supporting their husbands. 00:19:59.328 --> 00:20:04.099 So we really do need to encourage those church planters to stay. 00:20:04.888 --> 00:20:08.152 We'll talk about this in the pastoral wellness piece that we're going to do 00:20:08.152 --> 00:20:10.632 in a little while. But the idea of, 00:20:12.872 --> 00:20:17.032 we have to take care of our whole self, our body, our mind, our soul, 00:20:17.032 --> 00:20:18.744 our marriage, our family. 00:20:19.858 --> 00:20:23.556 So I think one of the reasons people don't understand why ministry is so hard 00:20:23.910 --> 00:20:26.104 for church planters, there's just a lot of misconceptions. 00:20:27.746 --> 00:20:34.120 What are some of the misconceptions or the myths that you've seen people believe about church planting? 00:20:35.362 --> 00:20:38.902 Yeah, there's a lot of them out there, of course. One of the things that I was 00:20:38.902 --> 00:20:42.953 thinking about is some people think, and this is a misconception, right? 00:20:43.260 --> 00:20:48.198 Bigger is better or maybe smaller is better, but the truth is healthy is better. 00:20:49.005 --> 00:20:52.741 And you've got to be able to grow at a pace that God sustains you. 00:20:53.241 --> 00:20:57.362 You've got to stay away from the comparison trap. You got to realize that you're 00:20:57.362 --> 00:21:01.240 not in this to compare yourself and your journey to what, 00:21:02.355 --> 00:21:05.624 God is doing down the street there. There's a lot of misconceptions about that. 00:21:06.250 --> 00:21:10.373 People sometimes think that it's just for young pastors. Well, 00:21:10.494 --> 00:21:12.543 that's not the truth. That's a misconception. 00:21:12.904 --> 00:21:16.645 I mean, if God calls you to plant a church and you've had a good discussion 00:21:16.645 --> 00:21:19.195 with your pastor and you've been assessed and everything, well, 00:21:19.195 --> 00:21:23.563 you need to obey that call. So again, that can be a misconception. 00:21:24.139 --> 00:21:28.345 Here, Jim, I'd love to hear this, but maybe some people say it's easier than 00:21:28.345 --> 00:21:31.825 revitalization. Now, we both know that's not true, but what would you say to that? 00:21:32.133 --> 00:21:34.135 I'd say it's a different kind of haul. 00:21:34.155 --> 00:21:34.820 Yeah, yeah. 00:21:35.029 --> 00:21:39.041 Yeah, I mean, I think there are aspects of each that are easier than the other, 00:21:39.353 --> 00:21:42.936 right? I mean, you know, if in a church revitalization, you're probably not 00:21:43.057 --> 00:21:47.557 hauling a trailer and setting up chairs and, you know, doing all that kind of stuff every Sunday. 00:21:48.013 --> 00:21:51.285 But you probably do have a 75-year-old air conditioner that's on an old pump 00:21:51.285 --> 00:21:54.875 system, and you're having to navigate that on the facility side. 00:21:55.375 --> 00:22:03.405 On the people side, you know, planting is easier on the side that you are initially 00:22:03.405 --> 00:22:07.865 at least mobilizing people who are bought in to the vision, whereas revitalization, 00:22:07.865 --> 00:22:10.173 you're having to kind of move them forward. 00:22:10.538 --> 00:22:14.245 But you don't have the history. You don't have the thing. And that's where I 00:22:14.245 --> 00:22:15.259 think it's a give and take. 00:22:16.035 --> 00:22:19.786 I don't know that you could really compare the difficultness of one to the other. 00:22:19.942 --> 00:22:23.485 Yeah, like in church planting, you might starve to death, but in revitalization, 00:22:23.485 --> 00:22:24.695 you might get stabbed to death. 00:22:24.695 --> 00:22:26.055 Yes. Yeah. 00:22:26.055 --> 00:22:26.595 That's good. 00:22:26.595 --> 00:22:29.845 I mean, Mike McKinley has a book called Church Planting is for Wimps. 00:22:29.855 --> 00:22:30.525 Yeah, right, right. 00:22:30.525 --> 00:22:35.365 That kind of argues that replanting is maybe the hardest. And I might would 00:22:35.365 --> 00:22:38.994 advocate for that out of all the replanting may be the hardest thing to do. 00:22:39.401 --> 00:22:42.455 But I do also think it's very different types of hard. 00:22:42.455 --> 00:22:47.010 Yeah, it is. It's definitely not easier, but it's different. Yeah. 00:22:47.231 --> 00:22:47.579 Yeah. 00:22:47.968 --> 00:22:53.495 Yeah. I do think that some of the misconceptions are, we foster them. 00:22:54.055 --> 00:22:59.565 I mean, they get fueled by kind of the narrative that we tell ourself. 00:22:59.565 --> 00:23:02.904 And it's choose your heart. 00:23:03.165 --> 00:23:05.336 I mean, at the end of the day, 00:23:07.273 --> 00:23:13.153 ministry is hard work. Ministry takes a schedule. It takes a task list. 00:23:14.529 --> 00:23:18.778 And here's the thing, when you're planting a church, that task list looks different. 00:23:20.368 --> 00:23:26.548 And I think one of the misconceptions is that while there's an organic component 00:23:26.548 --> 00:23:29.878 to, there's a spirit, there's a mystical side to what, like God, 00:23:29.878 --> 00:23:31.624 Jesus really does build the church. 00:23:32.368 --> 00:23:38.118 I mean, he's the one who does it, But it's amazing how he does it when there 00:23:38.118 --> 00:23:43.738 is effort on our part. Chuck Swindoll tells a funny joke. I just aged myself, 00:23:43.738 --> 00:23:45.453 but Chuck Swindoll tells a funny joke. 00:23:45.807 --> 00:23:50.798 Somebody came up to a farmer and said, hey, that field looks good. 00:23:51.094 --> 00:23:54.678 And the farmer said, yeah, we've done a lot of work. And the guy says, 00:23:54.678 --> 00:23:55.740 well, doesn't God do that? 00:23:56.181 --> 00:24:00.105 And the farmer says to the guy, you should have seen it when God had it all by himself. 00:24:00.251 --> 00:24:05.468 Oh, that's great. That's awesome. So, you know, so there is effort that is put in. 00:24:05.468 --> 00:24:09.568 Yeah. And one of the things I have to say is ministry is hard on purpose because 00:24:09.568 --> 00:24:14.528 by God's design, because it shapes us. In 2 Corinthians 1, the Apostle Paul 00:24:14.528 --> 00:24:16.174 says, I don't want you to be unaware. 00:24:16.574 --> 00:24:20.358 The afflictions I experienced in Asia, as a matter of fact, and this is my Jimbo 00:24:20.358 --> 00:24:22.495 paraphrase, I thought we were going to die. 00:24:22.693 --> 00:24:23.198 Yeah. 00:24:23.198 --> 00:24:25.918 But then there's this phrase that struck me years ago. He says, 00:24:25.918 --> 00:24:30.843 but that, that difficulty was so that we would rely on God and not ourselves. 00:24:31.029 --> 00:24:33.507 So ministry can be hard. We've got just a couple minutes left. 00:24:33.832 --> 00:24:37.678 Just what's one or two stories of something you see happening at First Coast 00:24:37.678 --> 00:24:40.605 churches to remind you of why this matters? 00:24:40.925 --> 00:24:45.838 Yeah. So a couple guys that pop off real quick here. Philip Skarnecchia of Mission 00:24:45.838 --> 00:24:50.238 City Church and Joey Presetti of Gather Church. They're both in St. John's County. 00:24:50.238 --> 00:24:51.088 Benji Cash. 00:24:51.088 --> 00:24:55.098 Benji Cash out of Mayport, Florida. I mean, when I think about these guys, 00:24:55.098 --> 00:25:00.128 not only are they really good communicators, preachers of the gospel, 00:25:00.128 --> 00:25:02.571 but they're also community cultivators. 00:25:03.221 --> 00:25:05.879 They cultivate the community. They don't just sit in their office. 00:25:06.379 --> 00:25:07.199 And they couldn't be more different. 00:25:07.199 --> 00:25:08.159 And they're all different. 00:25:08.159 --> 00:25:08.451 Yeah. 00:25:08.556 --> 00:25:12.699 I mean, Benji with the workout fitness stuff. 00:25:12.699 --> 00:25:13.539 CrossFit stuff, yeah. 00:25:13.539 --> 00:25:16.749 Yeah, CrossFit. And just, they're all doing an incredible job. 00:25:16.749 --> 00:25:21.389 And the other thing too, is when you talk to them, they all have a vision and 00:25:21.389 --> 00:25:25.579 a plan to multiply their church. They don't want to see it's just their church 00:25:25.579 --> 00:25:28.971 and how many can they gather. So they're actively developing leaders. 00:25:29.320 --> 00:25:33.259 They're generous. They're generous. We're just looking for ways to how do we help another church. 00:25:33.259 --> 00:25:34.649 Absolutely. Yep. Yep. 00:25:35.379 --> 00:25:39.510 That's great. So let's talk before we close with some rapid fire questions and next steps. 00:25:39.905 --> 00:25:43.919 Darren, if somebody is listening and they say, I think God may be leading me 00:25:44.299 --> 00:25:48.359 or our church into church planting, what happens next? 00:25:48.359 --> 00:25:53.699 Yeah. So I always say when I talk to somebody, have you had this conversation 00:25:53.699 --> 00:25:57.331