WEBVTT 00:00:05.545 --> 00:00:09.685 Welcome to the Don't Pastor Alone podcast, where we connect pastors and churches 00:00:09.685 --> 00:00:14.897 with trusted people and practical resources so they don't pastor alone. I'm Bob Bumgarner. 00:00:15.407 --> 00:00:19.755 And I'm Jimbo Stewart. Today, Bob, what we're going to talk about is intentional 00:00:19.755 --> 00:00:26.007 disciple-making through a framework that we at First Coast Churches call the Dream Disciple. 00:00:26.478 --> 00:00:31.885 Bob, Dream Disciple is a phrase people may not have heard before, so walk us through. 00:00:32.365 --> 00:00:34.581 What is dream disciple. 00:00:35.142 --> 00:00:41.661 Yeah, it's a great concept that I think is, it's built on this idea. 00:00:42.195 --> 00:00:46.065 Pastor, what kind of disciple would be a dream for you to lead? 00:00:46.905 --> 00:00:50.967 So in other words, if your mission statement is going to get accomplished, 00:00:51.907 --> 00:00:55.685 what kind of disciples do you need to be making in order for it to be accomplished? 00:00:55.685 --> 00:01:00.289 So a dream disciple is the kind of follower of Jesus your church is intentionally 00:01:00.649 --> 00:01:03.366 designed to help people become. 00:01:03.922 --> 00:01:08.637 What's interesting about it though, is this, as you intentionally help people 00:01:08.938 --> 00:01:13.048 mature in this way, there's this phrase that's part of the definition. 00:01:13.606 --> 00:01:18.133 And that is that, what kind of disciple are you helping mature and multiply, 00:01:18.853 --> 00:01:21.854 that your community desperately needs more of? 00:01:22.882 --> 00:01:25.865 So in other words, one of the things that we believe, and when I say we, 00:01:25.865 --> 00:01:29.146 it's Clarity house, and we'll talk about that more in a second, 00:01:29.825 --> 00:01:34.405 is we tend to think of what kind of disciples does our church need. 00:01:35.583 --> 00:01:39.804 But really what we need to be asking is if we're going to reach our part of the city, 00:01:40.581 --> 00:01:45.254 What kind of disciples do we need to be making that our community desperately needs? 00:01:45.429 --> 00:01:48.859 In the same way, if you and I were going to live in Brazil for two years with 00:01:48.859 --> 00:01:52.609 an unreached people group, I mean, we would be asking what kind of disciples 00:01:52.609 --> 00:01:57.439 do we need to make to live in this community to reach this unreached people 00:01:57.439 --> 00:01:59.924 group? So I love the idea of the dream disciple. 00:02:00.466 --> 00:02:06.119 So why do you think that every church needs to, I know this about you, 00:02:06.119 --> 00:02:10.569 you believe every church really ought to consider how to get clarity on this. 00:02:11.089 --> 00:02:14.083 We're obviously called to make disciples in the Great Commission, 00:02:14.484 --> 00:02:19.139 but why is it so important to define specifically the kind of disciple that 00:02:19.139 --> 00:02:20.178 you're trying to develop? 00:02:20.451 --> 00:02:25.509 Okay. Without clarity, programs compete with one another. 00:02:27.049 --> 00:02:31.714 And you really don't know how to set priorities. So what happens? 00:02:32.173 --> 00:02:35.447 Your leaders, you're multiplying leaders, the leaders who are for you, 00:02:36.010 --> 00:02:37.897 they don't know where to throw down. 00:02:38.065 --> 00:02:44.096 Like they don't know what to be all in on because everything feels equal. People stay busy. 00:02:45.025 --> 00:02:51.062 But purposeless busyness creates exhaustion. It's not exciting. It's not fun. 00:02:52.357 --> 00:02:55.637 By default, success becomes attendance. Yeah. 00:02:56.270 --> 00:03:00.280 Yeah, I was going to say like the by default success piece, I think is such 00:03:00.280 --> 00:03:05.480 an important part of why you have to do this because it becomes, the bar becomes so low. 00:03:05.480 --> 00:03:06.032 Yes. 00:03:06.421 --> 00:03:10.548 Because are they here? Yeah. Do they serve in some way? 00:03:11.054 --> 00:03:14.896 Do they give in some way? All right, great. They're a disciple. 00:03:15.297 --> 00:03:20.370 When in reality, we all know that that's not, but I think a lot of pastors don't have clarity on that. 00:03:20.370 --> 00:03:24.033 And here's, I think I have an answer or at least a perspective. 00:03:25.830 --> 00:03:31.043 Most pastors grew up in a time when culture was less complex than it is now. 00:03:31.804 --> 00:03:34.665 Change was not happening as fast as it's happening now. 00:03:35.217 --> 00:03:39.270 So you did a Wednesday night program of discipleship. You may have even called 00:03:39.270 --> 00:03:40.465 it Christian Life Institute. 00:03:41.650 --> 00:03:44.789 You may have been really creative in it, whatever it was. 00:03:45.416 --> 00:03:48.951 But what did you have? You had some Rick Warren stuff. 00:03:49.375 --> 00:03:55.110 You had some Henry Blackaby stuff. You had some Dave Ramsey stuff. And it's all good. 00:03:55.770 --> 00:03:59.115 It's all good stuff, but it didn't point anywhere. 00:03:59.608 --> 00:04:02.730 Like, so in other words, hey, what do I do next? Well, what haven't you done 00:04:02.730 --> 00:04:05.291 yet? Like, what's the curriculum offering? 00:04:05.564 --> 00:04:14.457 So we had a curriculum menu, not a curriculum path that led toward an outcome, 00:04:15.250 --> 00:04:20.257 of what we really felt like God wanted us to do. So we actually had. 00:04:22.570 --> 00:04:26.834 Knowledgeable people who didn't know how to use their knowledge. 00:04:28.395 --> 00:04:34.597 And so I think that's why we need clarity. I think that our people are more distracted now. 00:04:35.387 --> 00:04:38.818 They have less time to give. So when we say, hey, 00:04:40.683 --> 00:04:48.135 we would like to help you be better at following Jesus this time next year by 00:04:48.135 --> 00:04:50.995 being someone who's an undivided follower of Christ. 00:04:53.775 --> 00:04:58.390 A radically generous person, whatever the label is that you're putting on there, 00:04:59.395 --> 00:05:00.422 that's attractive to them. 00:05:00.631 --> 00:05:00.956 Yeah. 00:05:01.495 --> 00:05:04.009 And so we have ways to help that happen. 00:05:04.857 --> 00:05:10.581 One of the things I love about the Dream Disciple framework is that it isn't just one-dimensional. 00:05:10.921 --> 00:05:18.011 It walks us through four relationships that we have as a follower of Christ. Walk us through that. 00:05:18.011 --> 00:05:21.813 Okay. So one of the things we do, so think of it this way. 00:05:22.401 --> 00:05:25.571 Let's pretend you and I, this sounds weird, but let's pretend you and I are 00:05:25.571 --> 00:05:26.852 building a discipleship puzzle. 00:05:27.200 --> 00:05:27.571 Okay. 00:05:27.571 --> 00:05:32.529 So we get at a table and we look at the top of the box and we see the picture. 00:05:32.744 --> 00:05:34.625 And let's say it's your church's mission statement. 00:05:35.426 --> 00:05:38.371 First thing we do is we take the lid off, set it over on the side so we can 00:05:38.371 --> 00:05:42.621 see it, dump all the pieces out, turn them right side up, find the four corner pieces. 00:05:44.505 --> 00:05:48.934 In essence, the dream disciple is looking at your church's mission statement 00:05:49.125 --> 00:05:52.121 and saying, what does that look like? 00:05:52.869 --> 00:05:57.855 And then finding the four corner pieces, an upward piece, an inward piece, 00:05:58.151 --> 00:06:01.681 an outward piece, and a forward piece that I'm going to talk about here in a second, 00:06:02.240 --> 00:06:08.050 that allows you to actually put your puzzle together, like your programming 00:06:08.050 --> 00:06:14.600 together in a way that moves people toward those character and competency descriptors. 00:06:14.600 --> 00:06:14.980 Yeah. 00:06:14.980 --> 00:06:21.180 Okay. So we believe that someone who's a genuine follower of Jesus has an upward 00:06:21.180 --> 00:06:26.040 component. Like there's an upward characteristic, meaning they have a relationship 00:06:26.040 --> 00:06:28.401 with God. They have a saving relationship with God. 00:06:28.802 --> 00:06:34.300 They know Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and they have an affection. 00:06:35.013 --> 00:06:40.210 There's an affection for the Trinity, for those beings, for those people, 00:06:40.210 --> 00:06:42.397 for those gods, for that God. 00:06:42.861 --> 00:06:51.081 And so within that, not only is there an affection, but there is attention. 00:06:51.662 --> 00:06:56.997 Like on a daily basis, they're giving attention upward. 00:06:57.819 --> 00:07:03.357 Okay? Then there's inward. And inward is the relationship with God's family. 00:07:04.527 --> 00:07:10.237 So what does that mean? It means that I value other people who have an upward 00:07:10.237 --> 00:07:15.472 perspective of God, and we're traveling together. We're learning to love one another. 00:07:15.960 --> 00:07:19.692 We are in unity, and we're serving. 00:07:20.337 --> 00:07:23.657 So the first one is being with God. 00:07:24.818 --> 00:07:29.924 Inward is being with the people of God. Okay. Then there's outward. 00:07:30.528 --> 00:07:34.986 And this is our relationship with people who don't know Jesus yet. 00:07:35.944 --> 00:07:40.849 Okay. So we're on mission. We're on God's mission. That's what outward is. 00:07:41.708 --> 00:07:45.998 And when we're on God's mission, we need compassion. We need evangelism. 00:07:46.201 --> 00:07:48.603 We need to understand what neighboring is. 00:07:49.259 --> 00:07:56.649 And then there's forward. And forward deals with generations. So in other words, 00:07:57.674 --> 00:08:03.615 A disciple has an upward, an inward, and an outward focus, but if we're going 00:08:03.615 --> 00:08:07.518 to have generations of that, then we've got to be forward. 00:08:07.797 --> 00:08:08.116 Yeah. 00:08:09.095 --> 00:08:16.145 So what are the... So 2 Timothy 2, what are the third and fourth generations of what we just... 00:08:16.155 --> 00:08:18.623 It's a triangle that we draw in the process. 00:08:18.943 --> 00:08:24.998 So it deals with mentoring, multiplication, and generations of disciples. 00:08:25.253 --> 00:08:30.576 I think it's become so helpful even for not just the leadership to know what 00:08:30.576 --> 00:08:34.156 they're trying to lead towards, but for the church member to know. 00:08:36.741 --> 00:08:41.876 I'm not just called to just show up, attend, give my money, serve in kids' ministry 00:08:41.876 --> 00:08:46.276 once a month, but I'm actually trying to become something. 00:08:47.700 --> 00:08:51.936 What happens, though, if you don't have one of those four dimensions? 00:08:51.936 --> 00:08:58.836 Yeah. Before we jump there, let me put a little bit of the problem with discipleship 00:08:58.836 --> 00:09:02.888 in the church, not on the lay people, but on us. 00:09:03.724 --> 00:09:09.926 I believe the average lay person in a church is behaving just like they've been trained to behave. 00:09:10.736 --> 00:09:13.116 So we've trained them to be attenders. 00:09:13.116 --> 00:09:13.400 Yeah. 00:09:13.835 --> 00:09:19.166 We've trained them to see the church as a place where I consume religious goods and services. 00:09:19.166 --> 00:09:19.443 Yeah. 00:09:20.111 --> 00:09:24.012 I think what you're asking is exactly the right question. How do we... 00:09:25.112 --> 00:09:29.228 How do we get it to where all four of those are working in tandem? 00:09:29.605 --> 00:09:35.274 Because if there's no upward relationship, I mean, if, 00:09:36.674 --> 00:09:40.281 I love my church and I'm on mission and I'm even thinking generationally, 00:09:40.699 --> 00:09:45.027 if I'm doing that because I'm a Baptist, then I have no power. 00:09:45.491 --> 00:09:45.787 Yeah. 00:09:46.020 --> 00:09:53.758 Like the power for spiritual living is in the upward characteristic and competencies of a disciple. 00:09:53.978 --> 00:09:55.586 What about if there's no inward? 00:09:55.795 --> 00:10:00.054 If there's no inward, then it is isolation. Like in other words, 00:10:00.054 --> 00:10:01.229 we're Lone Ranger Christians. 00:10:01.420 --> 00:10:04.934 Like I've got my coffee and my Bible and my Instagram that I show that I do 00:10:04.934 --> 00:10:05.925 my quiet time in the morning. 00:10:06.343 --> 00:10:10.319 And then I may even go down to the food pantry and might help in the community, 00:10:10.882 --> 00:10:13.165 but I'm not doing it with believers. 00:10:13.512 --> 00:10:19.274 So what happens is the transformative nature of living where there's a spiritual 00:10:19.274 --> 00:10:21.104 accountability, I miss that. 00:10:21.104 --> 00:10:21.498 Yeah. 00:10:22.073 --> 00:10:26.497 Like I miss out on the sandpapering that that happens. 00:10:26.671 --> 00:10:31.872 Okay, what if we've got inward, we've got upward, but we don't have outward? 00:10:32.145 --> 00:10:37.114 Yeah. If I want to be really snarky, we have our country club because we have 00:10:37.114 --> 00:10:39.074 the people who vote like us and do like us. 00:10:39.074 --> 00:10:39.614 Yeah. 00:10:39.994 --> 00:10:40.963 We're comfortable. 00:10:41.675 --> 00:10:47.062 Uh, but that's, but that's it. I mean, we're comfortable doing our religious thing. 00:10:47.602 --> 00:10:51.615 Yeah. And you touched on a little bit earlier, but this is the one I think so, 00:10:52.095 --> 00:10:57.235 so key that we, we maybe miss. I think a lot of churches have some thought towards, 00:10:58.275 --> 00:11:00.019 the upward, inward, the outward. 00:11:00.553 --> 00:11:07.885 Um, but what, what, what ends up happening if we have no forward identity that we're working towards. 00:11:08.140 --> 00:11:12.635 Yeah. So I, you would know this with your work with the North American Mission 00:11:12.635 --> 00:11:15.235 Board, you have lots of churches to revitalize. 00:11:15.235 --> 00:11:15.553 Yeah. 00:11:16.145 --> 00:11:22.375 Because the church did not, since it wasn't moving forward, it didn't continue 00:11:22.375 --> 00:11:23.471 reaching its community. 00:11:23.616 --> 00:11:23.900 Yeah. 00:11:24.045 --> 00:11:32.288 And so when Hispanics or African-American or Asian or Anglo lower middle class 00:11:32.608 --> 00:11:35.969 people moved in, they didn't fit. 00:11:36.485 --> 00:11:36.725 Yeah. 00:11:36.725 --> 00:11:41.295 There was not a place for them because we weren't thinking generationally. 00:11:41.615 --> 00:11:41.975 Yeah. 00:11:42.575 --> 00:11:47.251 Uh, and so, um, so it, it's the, it's the end. We, we're. 00:11:48.512 --> 00:11:50.988 There's no future without forward. 00:11:52.604 --> 00:11:56.592 Yeah, I would agree. I think it's so key is one of the reasons we see, 00:11:57.077 --> 00:12:02.081 I think, often churches have a really strong season for one generation, 00:12:03.404 --> 00:12:09.549 and then it doesn't pass to the next generation, which is why it ends up struggling 00:12:09.549 --> 00:12:11.429 and end up being a church that we're working with. 00:12:11.749 --> 00:12:15.429 So think about this with me for just a second. Okay. Let's pretend that we were 00:12:15.429 --> 00:12:18.822 at a church where these four characteristics weren't named. 00:12:19.298 --> 00:12:19.768 Right. 00:12:20.047 --> 00:12:23.229 But we did them. We behaved them. However we got there. 00:12:23.229 --> 00:12:25.509 Right. You don't have to do the dream disciple process. 00:12:25.509 --> 00:12:29.969 Yeah, we don't have to. But somehow the Holy Spirit showed up and we did the four things. 00:12:29.969 --> 00:12:30.403 Yes. 00:12:30.751 --> 00:12:36.589 What makes it so hard is when Pastor Smith leaves and Pastor Adams moves in, 00:12:37.815 --> 00:12:39.779 now he's brought something different. 00:12:39.779 --> 00:12:40.253 Yep. 00:12:41.389 --> 00:12:46.069 And probably it's unlikely that he's going to land on the four same things. 00:12:46.069 --> 00:12:46.575 Yep. 00:12:47.010 --> 00:12:52.499 And by the time that he convinces you, if he even has them named, 00:12:52.499 --> 00:12:56.623 like, so in other words, if he doesn't have them named, how does he even lead toward change? 00:12:56.913 --> 00:13:01.361 The beauty of the dream disciple is the church articulates them. 00:13:01.993 --> 00:13:07.674 So when a new pastor comes, if he, first of all, he can join you in your mission. 00:13:08.787 --> 00:13:11.848 But even if he sees a little bit of tweaking, you at least know, 00:13:11.848 --> 00:13:14.859 okay, this is the thing together now. 00:13:15.219 --> 00:13:18.888 We've been together two years. It's time for us to maybe tweak this. 00:13:19.167 --> 00:13:24.618 So you tweak it together so you know the four corners that you're going after. That's helpful. 00:13:25.427 --> 00:13:27.610 Here's something. Can a church, I mean, I think... 00:13:29.559 --> 00:13:34.614 churches are always discipling their people, whether they're doing it on purpose 00:13:34.614 --> 00:13:37.439 or not on purpose or with clarity or with confusion. 00:13:38.048 --> 00:13:43.970 And so I would say that churches could accidentally even make the wrong type of disciple. 00:13:45.034 --> 00:13:50.477 Is it possible for a church to be successful and still produce disciples that aren't fully formed? 00:13:50.924 --> 00:13:54.944 Yeah, I guess it depends on how you define successful. Can a church stay open 00:13:54.944 --> 00:13:56.494 and have a good budget and, 00:13:58.852 --> 00:14:02.994 even do some international mission work? I mean, yeah, if you're a regional 00:14:02.994 --> 00:14:06.549 church and nobody moves into where you are, 00:14:08.082 --> 00:14:12.074 I mean, the people, you don't reach your neighborhood, but people drive past 00:14:12.074 --> 00:14:16.000 everything because there's a unique preacher or whatever that's there. 00:14:16.313 --> 00:14:21.464 I mean, I suppose you could be that, but we understand the church at its best 00:14:21.464 --> 00:14:22.494 is a neighborhood expression. 00:14:23.334 --> 00:14:27.514 It starts as a neighborhood expression. It may be regional, but to skip your 00:14:27.514 --> 00:14:30.193 Jerusalem is not helpful. 00:14:30.414 --> 00:14:30.714 Yeah. 00:14:30.714 --> 00:14:36.733 It is, because somebody's got to own your Jerusalem, and if it's not you, then who? 00:14:38.154 --> 00:14:45.232 So what I would say is, by wrong disciple, how I would hear that is, 00:14:45.650 --> 00:14:50.234 can you make a disciple who is ineffective at reaching the neighborhood right 00:14:50.234 --> 00:14:52.232 around your church? Yeah, you could. 00:14:52.563 --> 00:14:52.774 Yeah. 00:14:53.154 --> 00:14:57.724 I mean, if you live in a neighborhood that largely doesn't speak English and 00:14:57.724 --> 00:15:01.880 you have no accommodation for that, then you have a discipling system. 00:15:02.449 --> 00:15:09.009 that doesn't work for the people that you're most easily responsible for. 00:15:09.206 --> 00:15:14.128 I think about a mission trip I took to Kenya, and the missionaries were trying 00:15:14.128 --> 00:15:17.628 to change a culture that had happened there from the first missionaries that 00:15:17.628 --> 00:15:23.048 went to Kenya, or at least that reached this particular tribe or group of Maasai. 00:15:23.048 --> 00:15:28.101 And they were like one of the last primitive tribes left in that part of Africa. 00:15:28.624 --> 00:15:34.018 And they, whether intentionally or unintentionally, communicated that when a 00:15:34.018 --> 00:15:39.298 Maasai started to follow Jesus, that they needed to no longer wear their traditional 00:15:39.693 --> 00:15:41.545 garb, and they needed to get a suit and a tie. 00:15:42.880 --> 00:15:46.418 And the missionaries I was working with was trying to reverse that and help 00:15:46.418 --> 00:15:52.488 them realize, if we're going to keep reaching Maasai, you need to keep being Maasai, right? 00:15:53.008 --> 00:15:57.488 And we don't need you to become Anglo and American or English. 00:15:58.385 --> 00:16:01.415 We've got to shift in that. 00:16:01.705 --> 00:16:06.634 So how does a church become really intentional in this? 00:16:07.408 --> 00:16:10.030 So maybe a pastor's listening to this podcast and they're thinking, 00:16:10.500 --> 00:16:15.039 I don't know if we've ever defined what a dream disciple or disciple ought to look like here. 00:16:16.008 --> 00:16:17.565 Where would you say they begin? 00:16:18.588 --> 00:16:23.503 Prayer. So I think it's kind of a Venn diagram. 00:16:24.888 --> 00:16:30.166 Who lives in their community? What kind of people? Who are they? Who lives there? 00:16:31.716 --> 00:16:34.668 What does the Bible say? What are the characteristics in the Bible? 00:16:34.668 --> 00:16:37.736 What does the Bible say that disciples are or do? 00:16:38.543 --> 00:16:40.638 And then lastly, 00:16:45.811 --> 00:16:50.176 what do you need them to do? So in other words, when you think about your community, 00:16:50.478 --> 00:16:53.469 when you think about what the Bible says, what are the skill sets, 00:16:53.469 --> 00:16:57.305 the competencies that you think that you need them to do? And then just begin to pray. 00:16:58.069 --> 00:17:01.293 And here's the thing, when you do your missiology, 00:17:02.743 --> 00:17:08.798 Then begin to pray how to articulate that in a way that is, I like this word, 00:17:08.798 --> 00:17:14.138 sticky, in a way that's easy for your people to remember. First Coast Churches can help with that. 00:17:14.138 --> 00:17:18.018 Yeah, as you say, pray, step two, give us a call. 00:17:18.018 --> 00:17:22.153 Yeah, call First Coast Churches. We can help you with that. As a matter of fact, I just started, 00:17:24.624 --> 00:17:30.319 probably a four-meeting journey with Refuge Church this week on Monday. 00:17:30.714 --> 00:17:36.098 They have seven people on their team. I'm meeting with Gather Church on Friday. 00:17:36.098 --> 00:17:39.328 We're doing it in a different way. We're working just with the pastor because 00:17:39.328 --> 00:17:42.228 it's still a church plant and they're still trying to figure it out. 00:17:42.228 --> 00:17:48.564 So there's multiple ways that we can do this. But you clarify what you need. You describe it. 00:17:49.838 --> 00:17:54.338 Here's the thing. Imagine this. Imagine knowing the kind of disciple you need 00:17:54.338 --> 00:17:59.193 to make, pastor, and then imagine that it's time to do your preaching calendar. 00:17:59.776 --> 00:18:00.939 Yeah. How would this impact? 00:18:00.939 --> 00:18:01.219 Yeah. 00:18:01.219 --> 00:18:04.599 Preaching calendar, once you get this. 00:18:04.599 --> 00:18:07.359 Okay. So it's done. It's done. Whatever it is, it's done. 00:18:07.919 --> 00:18:11.419 What's the downflow implications of that? 00:18:11.419 --> 00:18:17.029 So you would do a five or six week series to kick it off, to explain why we're 00:18:17.029 --> 00:18:20.245 naming our disciple, what each one means. 00:18:21.819 --> 00:18:27.435 So then every time you preach a sermon, a series, I mean, like you're in a series, 00:18:28.248 --> 00:18:33.220 think about finding illustrations that are those four things. 00:18:34.059 --> 00:18:38.149 You and I know this, people do what is celebrated. So whenever you come to a 00:18:38.149 --> 00:18:41.156 place in a sermon that there's an illustration of somebody doing something, 00:18:41.783 --> 00:18:44.442 which one of your four discipleship characteristics is it? 00:18:45.493 --> 00:18:49.977 and say something to the effect, hey, you know, one of our characteristics of 00:18:49.977 --> 00:18:52.807 a disciple is an unhindered follower. 00:18:53.892 --> 00:18:58.767 So, let me tell you about Sally. Here's what Sally did last week with a middle schooler. 00:18:59.287 --> 00:19:04.191 And you talk about what an unhindered follower of Jesus looks like. 00:19:04.939 --> 00:19:09.207 People begin to say, oh my gosh, I never knew. I mean, we have no idea how distracted 00:19:09.207 --> 00:19:13.734 people are by giving them illustrations that do that. 00:19:15.967 --> 00:19:21.401 So now it's time to train. And it's in the fall, and you're training for all your volunteers. 00:19:22.011 --> 00:19:25.807 Yes, there are certain things that greeters need to be and certain things that 00:19:25.807 --> 00:19:30.039 worship team needs to be, but everybody is a dream disciple. 00:19:30.947 --> 00:19:35.127 So you give skills to that. I mean, you give resources for that. 00:19:36.459 --> 00:19:41.347 At least once a year, There ought to be an emphasis in your small group curriculum. 00:19:42.241 --> 00:19:46.247 There's a very large church here in town that they spend the first two weeks 00:19:46.247 --> 00:19:51.424 of January going over. They don't have a dream disciple, but they have a triangle that they do. 00:19:51.558 --> 00:19:55.627 They explain their discipleship process and they illustrate each section of it. 00:19:55.958 --> 00:20:00.217 And then they say this, hey, everybody pull out your calendar because we want 00:20:00.217 --> 00:20:06.078 you to save these dates because these five or six dates this year amplify what 00:20:06.078 --> 00:20:07.268 we're doing in our dream disciple. 00:20:07.697 --> 00:20:10.652 So we're going to baptize on this day. Our revival is going to be here. 00:20:11.076 --> 00:20:14.245 And so see the empowerment that that gives. 00:20:14.988 --> 00:20:22.008 It really gives you the ability to help people see how valuable what you're 00:20:22.008 --> 00:20:23.403 doing is. Let me say this. 00:20:23.976 --> 00:20:28.707 If it feels random from the pulpit, if our disciple making feels random from 00:20:28.707 --> 00:20:33.886 the pulpit, it will not feel important in the lives of our people. 00:20:35.104 --> 00:20:37.223 Um, people don't prioritize random. 00:20:37.565 --> 00:20:37.896 Yeah. 00:20:38.523 --> 00:20:39.033 And so. 00:20:39.033 --> 00:20:41.489 And you have to say things so many more times than you think. 00:20:41.600 --> 00:20:42.128 Yes, you do. 00:20:42.633 --> 00:20:46.773 I mean, you're thinking about it as a pastor, you're thinking about it all week, every week. 00:20:46.773 --> 00:20:47.143 Yep. 00:20:47.265 --> 00:20:51.623 You're planning around it. Your people are maybe paying attention the one to 00:20:51.623 --> 00:20:55.473 two Sundays on average that they're attending your church on Sunday morning. 00:20:55.473 --> 00:20:58.603 If they're paying attention to what you're saying and picking up on the repeated 00:20:58.603 --> 00:21:03.693 phrases and just, I mean, over, over, over communicating is, 00:21:03.693 --> 00:21:06.758 is so crucial in us. You've done this with a lot of churches. 00:21:07.095 --> 00:21:11.743 What's been the most exciting, fun, interesting, surprising thing that you've 00:21:11.743 --> 00:21:13.382 seen come out of doing this with a church? 00:21:14.104 --> 00:21:15.521 That when you get the right people 00:21:15.678 --> 00:21:20.573 in the right room having the right conversation, God always shows up. 00:21:22.090 --> 00:21:24.613 There's one church, I'm not going to say its name. I don't want to, 00:21:24.613 --> 00:21:27.893 but I was working with them and we were talking about, 00:21:30.873 --> 00:21:37.526 their mission statement. And there was a phrase that they had something, it was about, 00:21:40.133 --> 00:21:43.327 their mission statement said something about opening our doors. 00:21:43.640 --> 00:21:44.000 Mm-hmm. 00:21:45.567 --> 00:21:48.511 And we, as I poked around on it, asked questions, I said, well, 00:21:48.511 --> 00:21:52.474 what else? And somebody said, you know what I just realized? 00:21:53.214 --> 00:21:56.221 We've opened our doors to our neighbors, but not our hearts. 00:21:57.464 --> 00:21:59.041 So they told, like, there were tears. 00:22:00.341 --> 00:22:03.652 Like, the tears were sort of confession. 00:22:04.309 --> 00:22:04.641 Yeah. 00:22:04.641 --> 00:22:08.274 That everybody agreed that, oh my gosh, we've had doors open, 00:22:08.576 --> 00:22:11.165 but the reason nobody walks in those doors is because our hearts aren't open. 00:22:11.321 --> 00:22:11.733 Yeah. 00:22:11.873 --> 00:22:12.141 And, 00:22:14.321 --> 00:22:18.111 that is not unusual. Like when you start teasing what it really means to do 00:22:18.111 --> 00:22:24.583 these things, what we say is you have to drip vision consistently. 00:22:26.021 --> 00:22:33.111 Pastors, about the time that you're either bored with your dream disciple or 00:22:33.333 --> 00:22:37.610 you're irritated with it, your people are just now getting it. 00:22:37.825 --> 00:22:38.145 Yeah. 00:22:39.106 --> 00:22:46.566 And one of the things that has happened is pastors typically change something when they get bored. 00:22:47.127 --> 00:22:50.877 So if you go back and you change your vision frame when you're bored, 00:22:51.442 --> 00:22:53.514 you've just pulled the rug out from under your people. 00:22:55.058 --> 00:22:58.362 It really does take a lot longer than you think. That's why you had to drip 00:22:58.362 --> 00:23:01.026 vision, continually illustrate it, train for it. 00:23:01.271 --> 00:23:06.352 Your church has to be a teaching center for the gospel, but also a training 00:23:06.352 --> 00:23:10.052 center for what it means to be a disciple that your community desperately needs. 00:23:10.052 --> 00:23:13.633 That's good. Let's do some rapid fire before you close this out. 00:23:15.182 --> 00:23:18.573 What's one characteristic you believe every disciple should have? 00:23:20.892 --> 00:23:24.939 I don't know if you would, that you're never done learning. Yeah. 00:23:24.939 --> 00:23:27.946 I mean, that's not always going to be one of your four corners, but the posture. 00:23:28.422 --> 00:23:28.569 Yeah. 00:23:28.569 --> 00:23:32.619 The posture of an apprentice. I mean, when we think of disciple, 00:23:32.950 --> 00:23:34.180 we tend to think of a tender. 00:23:34.534 --> 00:23:34.709 Yeah. 00:23:34.709 --> 00:23:38.549 When Jesus thought of disciple, when Jesus said, follow me, he was taught, 00:23:38.549 --> 00:23:39.707 apprentice yourself to me. 00:23:39.863 --> 00:23:40.101 Yeah. 00:23:40.444 --> 00:23:41.715 Align your life with me. 00:23:41.994 --> 00:23:42.309 Yeah. 00:23:42.309 --> 00:23:45.384 And say the same words, do the same things. 00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:50.423 And so turn a disciple, a dream disciple into an apprentice. 00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:53.969 What would you say is the most overlooked aspect of discipleship? 00:23:56.315 --> 00:24:02.011 The most overlooked aspect of discipleship is the articulation of what it is you're trying to do. 00:24:03.271 --> 00:24:05.361 I mean, nobody else... 00:24:07.469 --> 00:24:11.277 If you go to work for Home Depot, they're going to tell you the things to do. 00:24:11.526 --> 00:24:11.796 Yeah. 00:24:11.796 --> 00:24:14.260 They're going to tell you what customer service looks like. 00:24:14.423 --> 00:24:14.678 Yeah. 00:24:15.253 --> 00:24:20.746 If you go to, I mean, we all know this. If you go to Chick-fil-A and you don't 00:24:20.746 --> 00:24:24.096 want to say my pleasure, you're not going to fit, right? 00:24:24.096 --> 00:24:24.410 Yeah. 00:24:24.649 --> 00:24:29.825 And so, but all of a sudden, I mean, the military does it. 00:24:30.145 --> 00:24:33.647 Every high performing organization does it. 00:24:34.314 --> 00:24:38.047 But when we come to church, we just kind of don't expect it. 00:24:38.889 --> 00:24:42.746 We just think sincerity is going to do it. No, no. Jesus said, 00:24:42.746 --> 00:24:46.836 follow me and I'll make you what? Evangelists? No, fishers of men. 00:24:46.836 --> 00:24:47.216 Yeah. 00:24:47.216 --> 00:24:48.991 He said it in their language. 00:24:49.345 --> 00:24:49.646 Yeah. 00:24:49.646 --> 00:24:53.866 What they needed. In another Paul, Paul talks about a good soldier, 00:24:53.866 --> 00:24:56.247 a good farmer. Is he just making up scripture? 00:24:56.618 --> 00:25:02.336 No, he's describing a disciple. He's saying it so that those people can wrap their minds around it. 00:25:02.336 --> 00:25:02.725 Yeah. 00:25:02.836 --> 00:25:05.045 And behave it. So... 00:25:05.811 --> 00:25:09.080 All right. One book every pastor should read on disciple making. 00:25:11.266 --> 00:25:14.607 I guess I would say, I would say future church. 00:25:16.365 --> 00:25:20.567 And here's why. Because it is a holistic look at disciple making. 00:25:21.645 --> 00:25:26.982 It covers the organization. It covers the systems. It covers one-on-one. 00:25:28.005 --> 00:25:30.035 So I would just say, I would say future church. 00:25:30.919 --> 00:25:31.955 All right. Final challenge. 00:25:31.955 --> 00:25:32.595 Wait, wait, wait, wait. 00:25:32.595 --> 00:25:33.002 Yeah. 00:25:33.585 --> 00:25:35.063 What did I say before future church? 00:25:35.664 --> 00:25:36.975 You said future. 00:25:36.975 --> 00:25:41.105 Yeah, future church. I was thinking I said church unique, but it's future church. 00:25:41.165 --> 00:25:42.299 You said future church, yeah. 00:25:43.547 --> 00:25:48.090 All right, final challenge. If a pastor only remembers one sentence from today, 00:25:48.671 --> 00:25:49.606 what would you hope it is? 00:25:52.259 --> 00:25:57.070 Your ministry system always produces exactly what it's designed to produce. 00:25:57.782 --> 00:26:01.419 So take out a blank sheet of paper if you've been listening to this seriously 00:26:01.419 --> 00:26:02.669 and ask yourself one question. 00:26:03.296 --> 00:26:06.079 If every person in our church became exactly what we were hoping for, 00:26:06.079 --> 00:26:07.232 what would they actually look like? 00:26:07.859 --> 00:26:11.336 Write it down, pray over it, talk about it with your leaders. 00:26:11.868 --> 00:26:18.209 and if you've not articulated that somewhere, give us a call and let us help 00:26:18.209 --> 00:26:22.647 you articulate it in a way that your church will remember because you don't have to pastor alone.