WEBVTT 00:00:05.545 --> 00:00:09.085 Welcome to the Don't Pastor Alone podcast, where we connect pastors and churches 00:00:09.085 --> 00:00:13.840 with trusted people and practical resources so they don't pastor alone. I'm Bob Bumgarner. 00:00:14.078 --> 00:00:19.245 And I'm Jimbo Stewart. Today, we're going to wrap up our four-part series on 00:00:19.245 --> 00:00:22.505 the four kingdom practices that shape healthy pastors and healthy churches. 00:00:22.505 --> 00:00:26.225 Pray dependently, preach boldly, shepherd resiliently. And today, 00:00:26.225 --> 00:00:29.833 we're going to talk about what it means to lead wisely. 00:00:30.233 --> 00:00:34.175 So, Bob, what is wise leadership? 00:00:34.175 --> 00:00:37.545 I mean, leadership itself was one of those words that obviously, 00:00:37.545 --> 00:00:41.815 I mean, you hear it everywhere. And I think I've heard a hundred different definitions 00:00:41.815 --> 00:00:45.665 of what leadership is, but not everyone means the same thing. 00:00:45.665 --> 00:00:46.940 Obviously, they're not always targeted. 00:00:47.265 --> 00:00:52.989 You're targeting here, when you say lead wisely for the pastor of a local church, what do you mean? 00:00:53.576 --> 00:00:58.777 Great question. I think that, so it's obviously within a biblical context. 00:00:59.264 --> 00:01:04.885 So we believe Jesus is the greatest leader of all time. So leading wisely is 00:01:04.885 --> 00:01:06.798 how do I lead the most like Jesus? 00:01:07.365 --> 00:01:11.405 And with that in mind, I would say that we have to understand that more than 00:01:11.405 --> 00:01:14.100 a position, leadership is a stewardship. 00:01:14.843 --> 00:01:20.827 It is how I direct the resources that God has put in my care. 00:01:21.297 --> 00:01:25.747 Leadership, Maxwell's right, it is influence, but it's more than that. 00:01:26.072 --> 00:01:28.028 It's influence with responsibility. 00:01:28.892 --> 00:01:34.977 So in other words, it's influencing toward a thing, toward spiritual maturity, 00:01:35.580 --> 00:01:38.164 toward kingdom growth and outcome. 00:01:38.564 --> 00:01:44.049 It is driven by serving. I mean, it's motivated by service. 00:01:44.832 --> 00:01:49.039 It's not primarily about controlling. It is, as a matter of fact. 00:01:50.012 --> 00:01:55.182 I'm not saying that you never try to control an outcome, but what I can say 00:01:55.182 --> 00:01:59.692 is just like in a marriage, if you're trying to control everything in a marriage, 00:01:59.692 --> 00:02:04.092 you're probably not submitting to one another and you're probably not serving. 00:02:04.092 --> 00:02:06.737 You probably have an agenda you're working toward. 00:02:07.475 --> 00:02:14.680 So wise leadership in a summary statement is helping people move toward God's mission. 00:02:15.092 --> 00:02:20.579 And Tom Patterson, a friend of mine, would say it this way when he was talking about perspective. 00:02:21.049 --> 00:02:25.352 It is making decisions today with tomorrow in mind. 00:02:26.992 --> 00:02:27.958 That's wise leadership. 00:02:29.758 --> 00:02:36.604 Why do you think, or do you think, leadership in the church is a particularly, 00:02:37.080 --> 00:02:40.552 difficult lane or avenue of leadership? 00:02:41.415 --> 00:02:46.885 I think it's a difficult lane because of all the leadership models we have. 00:02:47.576 --> 00:02:54.065 So in America, we have military, and within the military, you have the Navy 00:02:54.065 --> 00:02:57.785 SEALs, and then you have sports. 00:02:57.785 --> 00:03:04.512 And so you have, what does a head football coach do? You know, how do they lead? 00:03:04.924 --> 00:03:09.336 And then you have the wise Harvard people, you know, when they talk about leadership. 00:03:10.015 --> 00:03:17.635 So why is it hard in the church? Because we really haven't narrowed our model of leadership. 00:03:18.751 --> 00:03:24.235 We believe at First Coast Churches that you can learn from those other lanes 00:03:24.595 --> 00:03:28.405 of leadership, but there's only one perfect model. and Jesus is his name. 00:03:30.735 --> 00:03:37.177 And that Jesus led in such a way, like, think about this. 00:03:37.798 --> 00:03:43.765 Jesus led knowing he was leaving and his most expansive work would happen in his absence. 00:03:44.845 --> 00:03:49.919 So, he led so that the God, so three and a half years later when he left, 00:03:50.151 --> 00:03:54.955 the people would be ready for him not to be there. That's movement leadership. 00:03:56.047 --> 00:04:00.656 So anyway, that's awesome. I do think that we sometimes... 00:04:03.006 --> 00:04:07.554 Church is harder. A business leader who's looking at the way a pastor leads 00:04:07.908 --> 00:04:11.042 thinks they can solve every problem they have. 00:04:11.646 --> 00:04:12.952 But they can fire people. 00:04:13.097 --> 00:04:18.982 Exactly. That is a, as you say, that's got to be a huge key difference is in 00:04:18.982 --> 00:04:20.722 ministry, you're primarily working with, 00:04:21.382 --> 00:04:27.252 volunteers, church members that you can't, you can't fire them and you probably 00:04:27.252 --> 00:04:30.024 don't have enough people volunteering in the first place. 00:04:30.500 --> 00:04:34.462 So if I lose this person, then what do I do? 00:04:34.942 --> 00:04:40.154 And they don't necessarily come to you skilled. They come willing. 00:04:41.202 --> 00:04:47.012 And then in addition to that, you're a pastor at a church and you've only been 00:04:47.012 --> 00:04:50.793 there two years, but everybody else has been there 30 years. 00:04:51.449 --> 00:04:55.037 And the last two pastors did it a little different than you did. 00:04:55.757 --> 00:04:58.943 And so they're used to how they've been trained to do something. 00:04:59.413 --> 00:05:04.789 And you're coming in and you're not overtly bucking the tradition, 00:05:05.276 --> 00:05:08.277 but you're certainly unfreezing their thinking. 00:05:08.545 --> 00:05:12.167 And that oftentimes develops resistance. 00:05:12.997 --> 00:05:16.157 Yeah, not only that, like some volunteers give you another V. 00:05:16.909 --> 00:05:20.317 In a lot of churches, you got to, you can have the best idea in the world, 00:05:20.317 --> 00:05:21.526 but the people got to vote on it. 00:05:22.072 --> 00:05:22.397 Yes. 00:05:22.697 --> 00:05:27.817 And, uh, and so, whereas if you're running a business, you know, 00:05:27.817 --> 00:05:30.307 one, if somebody is not falling in line and they're going against what you need 00:05:30.307 --> 00:05:34.637 to do, you can fire them and you can replace them and maybe even fairly quickly. 00:05:34.637 --> 00:05:35.067 Yes. 00:05:35.067 --> 00:05:42.599 And then they're, you know, no CEO is getting all his people to vote on his, his vision, his idea. 00:05:42.703 --> 00:05:43.057 Yes. 00:05:43.057 --> 00:05:46.357 All right. He's telling you. This is what we're doing. 00:05:46.957 --> 00:05:50.807 And so as a pastor, not only do you have to navigate the difficulties of volunteers 00:05:50.807 --> 00:05:53.977 helping you do this, but not everything, but in some churches, 00:05:53.977 --> 00:05:58.607 a lot of it ends up getting voted on. And even if not officially voted on, 00:06:00.070 --> 00:06:01.394 they could just choose to leave. 00:06:01.701 --> 00:06:06.601 Well, and to build on that, not only is it voted on in a real vote, 00:06:06.990 --> 00:06:08.807 then it's financed by them. 00:06:09.538 --> 00:06:15.151 So you have volunteers. You have to lead so well that volunteers, 00:06:15.517 --> 00:06:22.460 since God's saying, this is the direction we want to go, we're going to vote for it with our hands, 00:06:23.011 --> 00:06:28.097 and we're going to pay for it with our hearts, and we're going to do it with our feet. 00:06:28.777 --> 00:06:33.347 So, I mean, that is a whole another level of leadership. 00:06:33.347 --> 00:06:35.437 Yeah, it's definitely a different type of leadership. 00:06:35.437 --> 00:06:35.753 Yeah. 00:06:36.531 --> 00:06:41.291 You've coached a lot of pastors and ministry leaders, myself included. 00:06:41.291 --> 00:06:45.491 One of my favorite things about this podcast is I already ask you a lot of questions 00:06:45.491 --> 00:06:47.101 every week, and now we're just recording it. 00:06:47.101 --> 00:06:47.971 Sure. That's good. 00:06:48.451 --> 00:06:53.601 So after you've coached as many pastors as you have, what mistakes do you see 00:06:53.601 --> 00:06:58.289 repeated as kind of a pattern over and over in a lot of different pastors? 00:06:58.521 --> 00:07:02.591 Yeah, I think there are some common ones. I think moving too fast. 00:07:03.191 --> 00:07:08.577 And what that means, it's not really about speed, it's about trust. 00:07:08.925 --> 00:07:14.303 So in other words, people only follow people that they trust. 00:07:15.691 --> 00:07:21.921 So have you been there long enough to ask of them what, have you been there 00:07:21.921 --> 00:07:28.160 long enough and establish trust that's deep enough to ask what you're asking them to do? 00:07:28.874 --> 00:07:36.063 And so if you move into a place and you within 90 days or 180, 00:07:36.871 --> 00:07:44.221 days are proposing a relocation and moving from the hymnal to projection of 00:07:44.221 --> 00:07:47.211 a screen and not meeting on Sunday night, 00:07:48.091 --> 00:07:50.709 they have a title for you. You're the former pastor. 00:07:52.031 --> 00:07:56.491 And so moving too fast. But I also think you can move way too slowly. 00:07:56.491 --> 00:07:56.781 Yeah. 00:07:57.222 --> 00:08:03.721 You know, and so part of people, spirit-filled people know that God's going somewhere. 00:08:04.464 --> 00:08:10.359 And so if you, if you've been somewhere and it's been three years or a number, 00:08:10.580 --> 00:08:14.040 you know, a long time and there's, and you're not, if you're not moving towards 00:08:14.040 --> 00:08:17.950 something, that's, that's too slowly. And so I think both of those things. 00:08:17.950 --> 00:08:20.250 There's always got to be some level of transformation, right? 00:08:20.250 --> 00:08:23.918 That's what we have to be maturing, which means we are changing. 00:08:24.069 --> 00:08:24.360 Yeah. 00:08:24.360 --> 00:08:29.090 And so finding that, what we call tactical patience, the ability to know kind 00:08:29.090 --> 00:08:32.792 of the, the pace at which we need to lead is key. 00:08:33.210 --> 00:08:38.120 Yeah. I actually think as well, another thing that I see is real, 00:08:38.120 --> 00:08:44.065 and I see this in younger leaders that are kind of fresh seminarians or fresh Bible college people. 00:08:45.150 --> 00:08:48.844 If I could get in their head, I think I'd see this on the screen. You know what? 00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:53.280 I know that my previous pastor couldn't please Ms. Smith, but I'm going to be able to. 00:08:53.860 --> 00:08:57.790 I'm going to be the one. And so trying to please everyone. 00:08:57.790 --> 00:08:58.040 Yeah. 00:08:58.420 --> 00:09:03.825 I think is a pattern I see. And when they realize they can't please everyone, 00:09:04.411 --> 00:09:09.320 avoiding the hard conversation, kind of thinking if it, if I ignore it, it will go away. 00:09:10.160 --> 00:09:12.874 And certainly there are some trivial things that maybe that'll happen, 00:09:13.722 --> 00:09:18.113 but it's not everything. You've got to have some of those hard conversations. 00:09:18.908 --> 00:09:23.970 Do you see, do you see a lot of mistakes when it comes to how well they communicate 00:09:23.970 --> 00:09:26.380 or clarity of direction? 00:09:27.195 --> 00:09:28.480 Do you see that as a common one? 00:09:28.560 --> 00:09:32.878 Yeah, I do. I actually see that as one of the most fixable things. 00:09:32.994 --> 00:09:33.389 Okay. 00:09:34.838 --> 00:09:40.938 Especially if you are, I see it especially in those who like to move fast and 00:09:40.938 --> 00:09:44.538 those who are good on their feet and pretty articulate. 00:09:45.403 --> 00:09:51.598 You think in the moment you can do something that communicates and inspiration's 00:09:51.598 --> 00:09:55.576 good, but clarification is the game. 00:09:55.965 --> 00:10:01.810 And so do what you have to do to communicate clearly, timelines, 00:10:01.920 --> 00:10:08.258 budgets, working frame, frameworks for how something, the result, 00:10:08.258 --> 00:10:10.930 like what's the result we're going after? 00:10:11.214 --> 00:10:14.413 How does this serve the most vulnerable people at our church? 00:10:15.172 --> 00:10:19.798 That's not just, I mean, that's necessary. That's actually shepherding. 00:10:20.048 --> 00:10:25.755 That's actually anticipating what the sheep need and addressing it. 00:10:26.858 --> 00:10:31.678 Sometimes the reason people ask really hard questions in business meetings is 00:10:31.678 --> 00:10:33.534 because you don't pre-answer them. 00:10:34.863 --> 00:10:40.588 So the wise leader thinks about what are all the questions people are going to have. 00:10:41.459 --> 00:10:46.658 They even go to naysayers and they say, hey, if we propose this, 00:10:46.658 --> 00:10:47.888 what would your questions be? 00:10:47.888 --> 00:10:48.158 Yep. 00:10:48.855 --> 00:10:55.020 And then you develop reasonable answers, like, and, and not dismissive answers, 00:10:55.199 --> 00:10:56.993 but reasonable answers. 00:10:57.458 --> 00:11:01.868 So I think that's super, I think, I think you're, I think you bring up a good 00:11:01.868 --> 00:11:04.998 point. If there is something that I think is kind of the, 00:11:06.746 --> 00:11:10.211 There's no silver, the multi-tool. Communication is the multi-tool, 00:11:13.386 --> 00:11:14.297 of wise leadership. 00:11:14.906 --> 00:11:20.554 I would add one more to the common mistakes I've seen and even practiced and had to correct. 00:11:21.706 --> 00:11:27.909 In light of the thread of don't pastor alone, kind of another angle to view that idea, 00:11:29.418 --> 00:11:37.006 is oftentimes doing ministry instead of pastoring alone by just doing it. 00:11:37.746 --> 00:11:42.976 Just doing all the stuff rather than looking for ways to equip the saints to 00:11:42.976 --> 00:11:44.488 develop leaders along the way. 00:11:44.691 --> 00:11:48.116 And think about the trap that that is, really, truly. So you probably got into 00:11:48.116 --> 00:11:50.916 ministry because you loved doing ministry. 00:11:50.916 --> 00:11:51.216 Yeah. 00:11:51.390 --> 00:11:58.366 And so you're pastoring 40 people. And guess what? You are the primary doer at that stage. 00:11:58.366 --> 00:11:58.664 Yeah. 00:11:59.170 --> 00:12:04.627 But if you don't start learning to be a developer of people, two things happen. 00:12:05.846 --> 00:12:08.981 Bottlenecks happen because you can't do it all when you're running 70. 00:12:09.980 --> 00:12:15.946 And the joy that you used to experience doing the ministry becomes resentment 00:12:15.946 --> 00:12:17.085 because you feel put upon. 00:12:18.153 --> 00:12:22.739 And you actually begin to resent the very people God has called you to serve. 00:12:23.140 --> 00:12:28.886 But guess what? You taught them to depend on you instead of somebody else helping 00:12:28.886 --> 00:12:31.580 them do the ministry. That's a great observation you make. 00:12:32.160 --> 00:12:37.096 One of the things about wise leadership is, obviously, you're making decisions. 00:12:37.096 --> 00:12:39.923 Like, at some point, you get to a decision point. 00:12:40.457 --> 00:12:46.501 Walk us through how you would approach or you would coach a pastor to approach a difficult decision. 00:12:46.628 --> 00:12:52.430 Okay. One of the things I think that's super important in making a decision, 00:12:53.086 --> 00:12:57.289 is getting really clear on the outcome you're trying to seek. 00:12:57.678 --> 00:12:58.020 Hmm. 00:12:58.917 --> 00:13:02.342 And that's more than just your perspective. 00:13:03.267 --> 00:13:07.615 So you want to know from whatever formal or informal... 00:13:08.826 --> 00:13:10.300 Group that you have. 00:13:13.101 --> 00:13:17.921 How do we feel about this? And then you want to get all of the question, 00:13:17.921 --> 00:13:21.908 all of the data points that you can get for that. 00:13:22.170 --> 00:13:26.252 That's really where, if you're a First Coast Church's church, we can help. 00:13:26.921 --> 00:13:31.011 So for instance, let me give you some examples. Suppose you want to do an evangelism 00:13:31.011 --> 00:13:34.403 project for your neighborhood or your community. 00:13:34.821 --> 00:13:36.771 You probably need to do a demographic study. 00:13:38.761 --> 00:13:41.471 And if you go to our website, there's a place where, you know, 00:13:41.471 --> 00:13:44.561 how we help go down to where, and we'll put this in the show notes, 00:13:44.881 --> 00:13:45.891 do you know your neighbor? 00:13:46.467 --> 00:13:51.071 And we can run a really great demographic profile to make sure that you know 00:13:51.071 --> 00:13:52.721 who's living in your neighborhood. 00:13:53.201 --> 00:13:58.664 So if you live in Ponte Vedra, Florida, you probably don't need a food pantry. 00:13:59.498 --> 00:14:04.641 I mean, or maybe even a clothes closet, But maybe you do need a marriage therapist, 00:14:05.281 --> 00:14:07.531 or maybe you need some Dave Ramsey stuff. 00:14:09.982 --> 00:14:16.205 So the decision to do a ministry like that is helped by knowing who lives in your community. 00:14:17.684 --> 00:14:22.411 Another thing to think through is when you're making a decision is to know the 00:14:22.411 --> 00:14:24.619 personalities of your people. 00:14:25.054 --> 00:14:28.791 Like who are the decision makers? So we've talked a little bit about DISC, 00:14:28.791 --> 00:14:33.791 D-I-S-C, I'll add here working genius, like what are roles that people are good 00:14:33.791 --> 00:14:35.027 at, even strength finders. 00:14:35.410 --> 00:14:40.261 All three of those are self-awareness tools that a pastor could, 00:14:40.261 --> 00:14:46.741 and we offer all those, could use to know how his decision makers think. 00:14:47.041 --> 00:14:47.320 Yeah. 00:14:47.854 --> 00:14:54.321 Because you have to lead different folks differently and give different people more time. 00:14:54.681 --> 00:14:56.758 Too. So for instance, I'll share a funny story. 00:14:57.258 --> 00:15:00.631 There's a gentleman on my team. He was in his seventies when I was leading him 00:15:00.631 --> 00:15:01.795 with the Florida Actors Convention. 00:15:02.842 --> 00:15:10.343 And on the disc scale, he was a very high CS, which means he likes to move slowly 00:15:10.593 --> 00:15:13.571 and he can spot why things won't work. Yep. 00:15:13.768 --> 00:15:17.215 So what would happen in team meetings is I would come down from my boss and 00:15:17.215 --> 00:15:18.540 say, hey, we need to do this. 00:15:18.923 --> 00:15:24.670 And he would just be a buzzkill. He tells why it wasn't going to work. 00:15:25.645 --> 00:15:29.765 What I realized is I was leading him wrong. So what I did privately, 00:15:29.765 --> 00:15:35.015 I went to him and said, did you know you have a gift because of your personality to spot barriers. 00:15:35.537 --> 00:15:39.265 So here's my promise to you. The next time Dr. Sullivan tells us we got to do 00:15:39.265 --> 00:15:40.767 something, I'm coming to you. 00:15:41.377 --> 00:15:44.875 I'm going to tell you what he said. And then in our next staff meeting, 00:15:44.875 --> 00:15:47.641 you're going to be the one, I'm going to tell what Dr. Sullivan wants. 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:52.625 And then you're going to give a presentation on how, what the barriers are that 00:15:52.625 --> 00:15:54.449 we're going to face and how to solve them. 00:15:55.616 --> 00:16:00.187 And like, it was amazing. It changed everything. 00:16:00.547 --> 00:16:06.200 And it was one conversation I was leading him wrong and leading him wrong caused my own problem. 00:16:06.438 --> 00:16:12.690 So we have tools like that that really can help a pastor make wise decision. 00:16:12.922 --> 00:16:18.380 So gather the facts, listen well, consider unintended consequences. 00:16:19.524 --> 00:16:23.047 Like in a small church, it matters who gets mad. 00:16:24.400 --> 00:16:29.797 And so I'm not saying never frustrate a gatekeeper, but you ought to know before 00:16:29.797 --> 00:16:32.867 the meeting if a gatekeeper is going to be mad. 00:16:33.146 --> 00:16:33.430 Yeah. 00:16:33.558 --> 00:16:37.337 Because if you can go to the gatekeeper before and tell them, 00:16:37.337 --> 00:16:41.607 hey, we're going to talk about this. I know you might have some feelings about 00:16:41.607 --> 00:16:43.687 it. So I want to give you time to pray. 00:16:43.960 --> 00:16:47.042 Feel free to call me. Let's go to lunch before. But this is going to come. 00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:52.887 That really does sometimes soften the response. You've dealt with a lot of revitalization. 00:16:52.887 --> 00:16:54.675 What are some things that you have found? 00:16:54.988 --> 00:16:58.527 Yeah, I would echo in what you were just talking about, going to the gatekeeper. 00:16:58.527 --> 00:17:00.487 I call that getting informal permission. 00:17:01.344 --> 00:17:05.547 And so I would often try to, especially early on in a revitalization, 00:17:05.547 --> 00:17:09.461 when you're still buying pastoral credibility and you don't have it yet. 00:17:10.011 --> 00:17:13.802 If I knew, man, when I propose this, I'm going to get some pushback. 00:17:14.127 --> 00:17:15.491 There should be some heavy opinions. 00:17:16.442 --> 00:17:19.837 And I know who those people are. I would go to those people and just, 00:17:19.837 --> 00:17:23.036 hey, as a hypothetical, like here's a real world one we did. 00:17:23.887 --> 00:17:26.317 We needed kid space. There hadn't been kids there in forever. 00:17:26.317 --> 00:17:28.209 Now we got kids and we don't know where to put them. 00:17:28.806 --> 00:17:33.648 We've got this huge choir room and there hasn't been a choir in years. It's this massive room. 00:17:34.390 --> 00:17:38.151 And really, I just, you know, the easiest solution is that now becomes the kids room. 00:17:38.889 --> 00:17:40.124 Well, I went to some people I 00:17:40.124 --> 00:17:44.112 knew would have an issue with that and just floated it as a hypothetical. 00:17:44.803 --> 00:17:48.164 Hey, here's what I'm thinking. You know, I think, have you noticed we got a 00:17:48.164 --> 00:17:49.574 lot of kids around? Yeah. 00:17:50.294 --> 00:17:53.884 Man, I can't figure out where to put them. You know, do you have any ideas? 00:17:54.174 --> 00:17:56.009 No, you know, I don't know where we would put them. 00:17:56.746 --> 00:18:00.964 I know this may sound crazy. I just, I was just thinking, how would you feel 00:18:00.964 --> 00:18:04.107 about if we tried to use the choir room for that, for the kids? 00:18:04.606 --> 00:18:07.717 Ah, you know, what if we get a choir again? And, 00:18:08.280 --> 00:18:10.374 well, I mean, if we do, do you think we could figure out how to, 00:18:10.374 --> 00:18:13.704 you know, like, and I would just converse with them until I felt like I had 00:18:13.704 --> 00:18:18.174 answered enough questions that not necessarily that they loved the idea, 00:18:18.174 --> 00:18:20.374 but that they, I'd answered their questions. 00:18:20.374 --> 00:18:22.810 We'd had, I got their informal permission. 00:18:23.060 --> 00:18:26.234 And if I would do that with the right people enough, by the time I brought it 00:18:26.234 --> 00:18:30.134 to the whole congregation on a family meeting on a Sunday night and just was 00:18:30.134 --> 00:18:32.092 like, hey guys, here's something we're thinking about doing. 00:18:32.696 --> 00:18:34.263 They all know who those people are too. 00:18:34.501 --> 00:18:34.824 Yeah. 00:18:34.824 --> 00:18:38.414 Right. And they're going to look and see, oh, I can't wait till so-and-so speaks up. 00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:42.644 And then, you know, one of them, they would even go, oh, me and pastor already 00:18:42.644 --> 00:18:44.604 talked about it. And I think it's a good idea. 00:18:45.193 --> 00:18:50.744 You know, and it just helps buy that credibility in that and avoid those decisions. 00:18:50.744 --> 00:18:56.380 Let me point out what I think you did. You matched your decision-making system, 00:18:57.065 --> 00:18:59.684 to the decision-making style of the church. 00:19:00.623 --> 00:19:04.804 So think about this. Suppose you'd come from a mega church where it was very 00:19:04.804 --> 00:19:09.505 corporate and you had been an intern there for a year and you'd gotten lots of great training, 00:19:10.120 --> 00:19:13.174 but now you're a pastor, you've gone to seminary, now you're a pastor of your 00:19:13.174 --> 00:19:16.390 first church, and it's time to make a decision. 00:19:17.092 --> 00:19:23.564 If you're unaware that a congregation of 30 to 50 that you're replanting or 00:19:23.564 --> 00:19:25.921 revitalizing is more like a family—, 00:19:27.012 --> 00:19:29.958 than a corporation, you're going to mess that up. 00:19:31.040 --> 00:19:35.987 And so you have to, and on a personal level, even if your bias is corporate, 00:19:36.468 --> 00:19:41.004 like even if you think corporate's more efficient, you have to honor. 00:19:41.826 --> 00:19:47.708 Think of the missiology of this. You're coming to a place, a missiologist honors 00:19:47.708 --> 00:19:49.018 the culture where they can. 00:19:50.014 --> 00:19:56.399 This is one of the places you can honor the culture by making decisions in ways that make sense to them. 00:19:56.782 --> 00:19:59.138 Yeah, we would call it organizational awareness. 00:19:59.138 --> 00:19:59.511 Yeah. 00:19:59.644 --> 00:20:05.188 Right? It's an understanding of the DNA of where it is God has called you. 00:20:05.292 --> 00:20:05.530 Yeah. 00:20:06.078 --> 00:20:10.848 And again, it's one of those where like, is it what you want it to be? Probably not. 00:20:11.016 --> 00:20:11.318 Yeah. 00:20:11.318 --> 00:20:14.638 Right? I mean, is everything exactly what, obviously it probably isn't. 00:20:14.934 --> 00:20:18.058 Or else where else are you going to lead them? Like we're always leading towards 00:20:18.058 --> 00:20:19.358 growing more like Christ. 00:20:20.436 --> 00:20:24.029 But it's where you are. And if it's where God calls you, then it's where God calls you. 00:20:24.029 --> 00:20:27.949 And you've got to navigate in what you— This is one of the things when guys 00:20:27.949 --> 00:20:30.959 call me and say they're going to quit. I would say one of the biggest mistakes 00:20:30.959 --> 00:20:35.029 is quitting too soon during a heavy time. And one of the things that guys will 00:20:35.029 --> 00:20:37.836 tell me, you don't understand how difficult this church is. 00:20:38.410 --> 00:20:43.479 And I always go like, look, I know this sounds, again, like the Jesus-Juke answer. 00:20:44.679 --> 00:20:45.719 Did God call you there? 00:20:45.719 --> 00:20:46.819 Yeah, that's it. 00:20:46.819 --> 00:20:51.939 Okay. Well, he did. Well, then ask him how to, you know, one of the things I've 00:20:51.939 --> 00:20:55.279 heard somebody say, not as an against to lead like Jesus. They say, 00:20:55.639 --> 00:20:57.271 don't lead like Jesus. Let Jesus lead. 00:20:58.943 --> 00:21:02.658 Like in that moment, just go, okay, Jesus, I need you to lead. 00:21:03.070 --> 00:21:06.709 I mean, because every church has opinions. And so how do you keep people focused 00:21:06.709 --> 00:21:10.439 on mission instead of preferences in that? 00:21:10.439 --> 00:21:14.979 Regardless of what system you're in, you know, there comes a point where we 00:21:14.979 --> 00:21:19.639 can't let preferences and opinions override the mission that God has given us. 00:21:19.979 --> 00:21:23.009 If there's one thing I would say, the smaller a church is, the more likely it's 00:21:23.009 --> 00:21:26.697 led by preferences. And that's because they worked. 00:21:27.184 --> 00:21:27.469 Yeah. 00:21:27.469 --> 00:21:32.579 That's because there were strong leaders who led at a time when. 00:21:35.659 --> 00:21:40.238 You know, historically speaking, megachurches are relatively new to the scene. 00:21:40.662 --> 00:21:44.510 And so there was a time when the church of 150 to 200 was a giant church. 00:21:44.899 --> 00:21:49.421 And so there were ways that that worked. Well, times have changed. 00:21:50.001 --> 00:21:55.259 And one of the things I would say is that the difference between mission and 00:21:55.259 --> 00:22:01.624 preference, or how do we—every church really does need to answer five questions. 00:22:02.669 --> 00:22:06.090 What do we do? That's our mission statement. Why do we do it? 00:22:06.432 --> 00:22:10.243 Those are our values. Not how do we wish we did it, but no, how do we really do it? 00:22:10.923 --> 00:22:14.902 That's our value statement. How do we do it is our strategy. 00:22:15.610 --> 00:22:20.597 When are we successful is our mission measures, and where does it lead us is our vision frame. 00:22:22.518 --> 00:22:27.882 There are 40 books out there that you could buy that will have those five ideas 00:22:28.120 --> 00:22:29.790 that you can use, and they're all good. 00:22:30.623 --> 00:22:33.395 What I want to say is I use a tool, called the vision frame. 00:22:34.026 --> 00:22:39.903 And the vision frame uses mission values, strategy, and mission measures as 00:22:39.903 --> 00:22:42.849 the frame, like a window that you're looking through to the future. 00:22:43.478 --> 00:22:49.602 And so my personal conviction is, is as you move away from preferences, 00:22:50.903 --> 00:22:57.339 the church needs to articulate together what the answer to those five questions. 00:22:57.629 --> 00:23:03.324 And the good news is if you are a First Coast Church's church of any size, 00:23:03.899 --> 00:23:09.622 we are here ready to walk you through that particular process. 00:23:09.972 --> 00:23:15.777 That's great. Let's skip ahead to, there's a difference between being smart, 00:23:16.293 --> 00:23:20.343 and being wise, wisdom versus knowledge. 00:23:21.083 --> 00:23:24.562 How would you explain the difference between those two? Yeah. 00:23:25.841 --> 00:23:33.561 Knowledge is something you know. Wisdom is often based in knowledge, but it's discernment. 00:23:36.461 --> 00:23:43.941 It's the reality that you see that may not be obvious. So in other words, wisdom, 00:23:46.421 --> 00:23:48.944 is being able to see implications before they happen. 00:23:49.213 --> 00:23:55.401 My favorite dorky illustration is knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. 00:23:56.434 --> 00:23:59.134 Wisdom is not putting it in your fruit salad. 00:23:59.410 --> 00:24:03.821 Yeah, there you go. That's good. That's not only dorky, but it's helpful. 00:24:06.355 --> 00:24:11.981 And here's the thing. I, I love, I love tomatoes. So that, but, but not that much. 00:24:13.161 --> 00:24:21.226 So I do think that part of the, the, the wisdom versus knowledge piece is this not. 00:24:22.975 --> 00:24:26.103 I think it's the wrong question to ask, what's the smart thing to do here? 00:24:27.201 --> 00:24:29.801 I think the right question is, what's the wise thing to do here? 00:24:29.801 --> 00:24:30.099 Yeah. 00:24:30.509 --> 00:24:37.971 Because wise means you have processed it, in my mind, through all the spiritual 00:24:37.971 --> 00:24:44.218 lenses, the emotional, the family constellation, through your own convictions. 00:24:44.676 --> 00:24:48.561 And so wisdom includes all of that. 00:24:49.603 --> 00:24:54.787 Wisdom will cause you, seeking wisdom will cause you to ask better questions. 00:24:55.761 --> 00:25:02.090 It'll cause you to ask open-ended questions and it'll actually allow you to suspend judgment. 00:25:02.981 --> 00:25:07.041 So in other words, if I'm asking Jimbo how First Coast churches can be better, 00:25:09.021 --> 00:25:13.231 he can tell me, but I've got to be, I've got to want the answer. 00:25:13.231 --> 00:25:17.044 Yeah. When you say wisdom get you out of your preferences? 00:25:17.884 --> 00:25:20.084 Yeah. It at least allows you to challenge them. 00:25:20.271 --> 00:25:20.521 Yeah. 00:25:20.521 --> 00:25:24.701 Because I would go so far as to say, not all preferences need to be lost. 00:25:24.701 --> 00:25:25.159 Right. 00:25:25.401 --> 00:25:28.081 Because like, so in other words, I think the bigger a church gets, 00:25:28.081 --> 00:25:29.360 the more relational it needs to be. 00:25:29.565 --> 00:25:29.826 Yeah. 00:25:30.254 --> 00:25:33.604 It's always been relational, but the way you keep relationship, 00:25:33.766 --> 00:25:35.761 so you hold onto that preference. 00:25:35.761 --> 00:25:39.841 We are committed to relationship, but the way we experience it, 00:25:39.861 --> 00:25:43.411 it's probably going to be through teams and small groups versus everybody in 00:25:43.411 --> 00:25:45.858 the worship center. Yeah. 00:25:46.620 --> 00:25:49.900 All right. If you could sit down with 30-year-old Bob Bumgarner, 00:25:50.626 --> 00:25:54.039 what's one leadership lesson you would tell him? 00:25:56.207 --> 00:26:01.927 It is not all on you. No matter how good you are, it is not all on you. 00:26:02.337 --> 00:26:07.713 And the things that you thought you were controlling, God in His graciousness was doing it. 00:26:08.485 --> 00:26:13.666 And you were like a two-year-old helping your dad, and you didn't realize it was him. 00:26:14.346 --> 00:26:17.746 You really thought it was you. So that would be it. 00:26:20.446 --> 00:26:25.943 That's not everybody's, but I think that would be mine. 00:26:26.531 --> 00:26:31.430 All right, so a few rapid fires before you close this out. What is your favorite leadership book? 00:26:32.586 --> 00:26:36.346 I know you got a long list of those. Give me one. 00:26:36.686 --> 00:26:42.303 Okay. I'll just give you my favorite one right this minute is, 00:26:42.591 --> 00:26:45.006 okay, it's going to be discipleship that fits. 00:26:45.267 --> 00:26:49.386 That doesn't sound like a leadership book, but it really is a leadership book 00:26:49.386 --> 00:26:56.686 because it explains five environments that discipleship happens in and what 00:26:56.686 --> 00:26:58.204 each environment's good at. 00:26:58.554 --> 00:27:01.954 So I'm calling it a leadership book because here's what it's doing for me. 00:27:02.552 --> 00:27:04.363 When I talk strategy now with people, 00:27:05.379 --> 00:27:10.406 I can actually intelligently engage them in what do you hope happens in the 00:27:10.406 --> 00:27:12.438 worship environment, in the big room. 00:27:13.001 --> 00:27:18.095 And I can know whether it's going to, if that's going to happen or not. So that would be it. 00:27:18.926 --> 00:27:22.595 What's one leader who's influenced you the most in your view of leadership? 00:27:24.236 --> 00:27:26.212 It is my boss. It's Dr. Chavis. 00:27:26.394 --> 00:27:26.696 Yeah. 00:27:27.003 --> 00:27:29.760 When I came to the convention in 1997, 00:27:31.836 --> 00:27:38.965 he just, he helped me. He was so secure that he was able to help me be secure, 00:27:39.698 --> 00:27:43.528 so that I could actually ask the questions that I'd never asked myself before. 00:27:44.636 --> 00:27:48.977 And then ultimately, he actually moved over and retired early so I could have his job. 00:27:49.636 --> 00:27:53.023 So that sense of servant leadership, 00:27:55.936 --> 00:27:58.390 it's opened so many doors of opportunity for me. 00:27:59.268 --> 00:28:01.817 What's the most underrated leadership habit. 00:28:03.331 --> 00:28:11.738 Consistency over heroic effort. Yeah, just doing the right thing consistent, 00:28:11.738 --> 00:28:14.148 doing the small thing over and over and over, 00:28:14.790 --> 00:28:18.436 like being clear over and over and over again. Yeah. 00:28:18.936 --> 00:28:22.308 And there's so many things you've listed today that I want to reiterate that 00:28:22.308 --> 00:28:27.038 for our First Coast Church's pastors that we're here, right, 00:28:27.038 --> 00:28:31.348 to help with clarity, to help with leadership development, to help with all of those things. 00:28:31.348 --> 00:28:35.902 But as you close us, before you close us out, answer this. 00:28:36.227 --> 00:28:38.808 If every pastor listening remembered one sentence from today, 00:28:38.808 --> 00:28:40.062 what would you hope it would be? 00:28:42.581 --> 00:28:48.326 Maybe this is because I am celebrating 26 years of Spike Hogan pastoring, 00:28:48.756 --> 00:28:52.790 but it's this one. The best leaders leave behind healthier people, 00:28:53.156 --> 00:28:54.528 not just bigger organizations. 00:28:55.728 --> 00:28:57.742